Western cultural adaptations

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Goofaholix
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by Goofaholix »

Ben wrote:You will also find that Buddhism predates the Hare Krishnas and even Hinduism. It would not surprise me that it is one of the many Buddhist artefacts that have been incorporated into Hinduism and some of its offshoots.
According to Wikipaedia Hare Krishna was founded in 1966, the same year Luang Por Sumedho ordained and only 3 years before Goenka started teaching in India BTW.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ben
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by Ben »

Hi Goof,
Yes, that is the modern Krsna Comsciousness (ISKON) movement. But that seems to be the modern iteration of a Krishna devotion cult it has been going for quite a while longer.
Kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Mr Man
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by Mr Man »

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appicchato
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by appicchato »

Lived near a Hare Krishna house in Laguna Beach, California in the sixties...a mad lot...please refresh my memory, why are we talking about them?...
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Ben
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by Ben »

appicchato wrote:Lived near a Hare Krishna house in Laguna Beach, California in the sixties...a mad lot...please refresh my memory, why are we talking about them?...
Hi Bhante,
They sound like heady days!
The diversion relates to comments binocular made here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p283458

The diversion is sort of on topic as it is an exploration of the conditioning influence of one religion or mental culture over another.
Kind regards,
Ben.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
binocular
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by binocular »

Kim OHara wrote:
binocular wrote:I think the Hare Krishnas introduce an interesting concept that may be worth considering (and may in fact already exist in Asian Buddhism, it's just that we in the West aren't seeing it?), namely, that of the "triple check" guru-sadhu-sastra. That is, essentially, that a person should follow only instructions that the three sources (ie. one's teacher, saintly people, and scriptures) agree on. This approach has its double binds too, to be sure, but it's not rocket science either.
Surely this is simply the Triple Gem - Buddha, Dharma and Sangha? And "taking refuge" in it is depending on it?
No. In Dhamma terms, it's about how a particular, actual person can know what is true Dhamma and what isn't.

For example, someone could go around claiming that the Buddha taught (to borrow a fake Buddha quote from Fake Buddha Quotes):
“To force oneself to believe and to accept a thing without understanding is political, and not spiritual or intellectual.”

Now, how do we know whether this is actually the teaching of the Buddha, whether it is actually the Dhamma?

We can (and do) tend to help ourselves with basically these three sources:
1. a person whose opinion we highly value and can inquire from (ie. guru),
2. other people whom we deem knowledgeable and whose texts we can read (and maybe even communicate with them) (ie. sadhus),
3. scriptures we deem authoritative (ie. sastra).

And then we check: if these three all agree that “To force oneself to believe and to accept a thing without understanding is political, and not spiritual or intellectual” is true and has been taught by the Buddha, we'll be inclined to also believe so; otherwise, we won't.

But any of the three sources per se doesn't seem enough:
Scriptures may simply be too large or too complex for a single person to study on one's own in whole and in detail in any foreseeable time, leaving one with doubt and uncertainty if one relies solely on scriptures to get answers to pressing questions.
Even saintly people sometime disagree (so how do we make sense of it?) or don't address a particular issue we have a problem with (or we cannot find it addressed in their body of work).
Relying just on the teacher seems too much like hero worship.

So to avoid the problems connected to relying on just one of the three sources, we rely to some extent on all of them. It's faster, more efficient.
Many people generally seem to apply that triple check anyway, but I've only seen it conveniently formulated like this by the Hare Krishnas so far.


All on one's own, how could one possibly have any idea what is the Triple Gem? If we look at Buddhism, there are many different schools, with many lineages in them, and many famous teachers too, and each of them has a somewhat different understanding of what the Triple Gem exactly is and what it means to take refuge in it.
Before one can take refuge in the Triple Gem, one has to somehow have an idea of what that is. How does one get that idea? Probably by some combination of input from a teacher(-figure), saintly people, and scriptures.

I think a bag in West's cultural baggage is the conviction that one decides about all these things on one's own, decide without the input from a teacher(-figure), saintly people, or scriptures what is Dhamma and what isn't, as if one could unilaterally declare membership in a religion.

Not every Westerner carries that bag, but some certainly do.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by tiltbillings »

binocular wrote:I think a bag in West's cultural baggage is the conviction that one decides about all these things on one's own, decide without the input from a teacher(-figure), saintly people, or scriptures what is Dhamma and what isn't, as if one could unilaterally declare membership in a religion.
Are you seriously suggesting that Western Hare Krishna folks are not doing the same thing?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
binocular
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by binocular »

Doing what exactly?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by tiltbillings »

binocular wrote:Doing what exactly?
What you seem to claim that some misguided Western Buddhists are doing. The Western Hare Krishna followers are exemplars of the supposed "triple check?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
binocular
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by binocular »

tiltbillings wrote:The Western Hare Krishna followers are exemplars of the supposed "triple check?"
Some certainly are. From what I've seen, if one wishes to maintain some semblance of sanity, one has to apply the triple check, otherwise one's spirituality/religiosity simply turns into fanaticism.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by tiltbillings »

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The Western Hare Krishna followers are exemplars of the supposed "triple check?"
Some certainly are. From what I've seen, if one wishes to maintain some semblance of sanity, one has to apply the triple check, otherwise one's spirituality/religiosity simply turns into fanaticism.
We certainly do not want Buddhist fanatics. So, tell us how this "triple check" would work -- what it would look like -- in a Buddhist context. Give some clear examples of this "triple check," both in terms of how it works with the Hare Krishnas and how it might look in a Buddhist context.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
binocular
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by binocular »

Already did above in the post the second-to last sentence of which you quoted, and earlier provided a link to the Hare Krishnas.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by tiltbillings »

binocular wrote:Already did above in the post the second-to last sentence of which you quoted, and earlier provided a link to the Hare Krishnas.
Both of which really do not say much in terms of what an actual application of the "triple check" might actually look like in practice for the Buddhist and what it looks like for the HK follower. There is nothing of substance there. You will need to put some meat on what few bones you have provided us.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Goofaholix
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by Goofaholix »

binocular wrote: We can (and do) tend to help ourselves with basically these three sources:
1. a person whose opinion we highly value and can inquire from (ie. guru),
2. other people whom we deem knowledgeable and whose texts we can read (and maybe even communicate with them) (ie. sadhus),
3. scriptures we deem authoritative (ie. sastra).
This is the main point of taking refuge in the triple gem, it's nothing new.

Obviously it changed once the Buddha died as one can only rely on what the scriptures say he said, and the Buddha is part of the Sangha so there are overlaps, but if one can't realisticly demonstrate Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha being in harmony on a matter then one is probably on the wrong track.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
binocular
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Post by binocular »

Goofaholix wrote:This is the main point of taking refuge in the triple gem,
According to whom? I at least have never seen that formulation in Buddhist sources before.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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