Page 2 of 3
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:00 am
by robertk
Ben wrote:
robertk wrote:
The commentary to the Netti pakarana has a section on the 38 vancakkha dhammas- the cheating dhammas.
For example on of them is related to renunciation: one moves to a secluded place, gives up meeting with people and feels this is because they are developing renunciation. It is just as likely to be done out of subtle aversion to the problems that come with society. On the othe rhand one stays in society and feels that one is doing this through equanimity or metta- but doesn't see the attachment to sensuality that is really motivating the behavior..
And practically every real right action in the spiritual realm has its not always obvious cheating counterpart (vangakkha). If there is no genuine awareness one might be 'cheated ' by these fakes for a lifetime.
Hi Robert,
How does one become aware and counter these vangakkha dhammas if they are so subtle as to be easily mistaken for kusala dhammas?
kind regards,
Ben
there is a parami called sacca, truthfulness that is woefully underdeveloped in most of us. So we are always quick to cling to anything that looks like progress and exaggerate it in our own mind.
basically , in my opinion , as soon As there is the merest hint or feeling of having Kusala we can be sure that attachment is blossoming and delusion is flowing.
so how to have kusala without clinging? no easy way, other than by really revering the teachings i think so that they become our teacher rather than tricky aspects of lobha which we take for insight.
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:24 am
by Ben
Thanks Robert!
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:34 am
by Coyote
Very interesting post Robert.
If it is very hard to tell whether the motivations for our actions are kusala, then how should we approach actions such as Dana, Sila and similar things? According to the commentary you posted, they may well be associated with akusala mind states in the individual, and yet we still do them to the best of out ability, even though we have not reached the level where they happen according to our nature (stream-entry). Why could the same not be said of renunciation and other right actions? I.e that we do them to the best of out ability, even though "real" wisdom is not there yet.
Thank you for your input
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:08 pm
by robertk
such an excellent question coyote.
i ask nina and sujin this same question many many times.
In good conventional actions , like say giving something to a monk, they would say there is sure to be at least some citta processes associated with kusala. But still there should be awareness developing or there will be almost instantly attachment after and during("how good it is,and i am") without realizing.
That doesnt mean be paralyzed, feeling that one has to be pure first, and not do any conventional good deeds. But it does mean one should be honest and open to seeing the very subtle lobha that likes to feel like a good person..
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:18 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
The Buddha doesn't seem as averse to such perceptions as "nina and sujin" are...
Dhp 18 wrote:Here he is happy, hereafter he is happy; one who performs meritorious deeds is happy in both existences. Happily he exclaims: "I have done meritorious deeds." He is happier still when he is reborn in a higher world (suggati).
Metta,
Retro.
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:28 pm
by chownah
peteG,
Seems like some people here are talking about how sometimes someone who finds social interaction boring will stop socializing to avoid the boredom but think that they have renounced socialization....in other words they misunderstand their motives by thinking that it is noble when in fact it is just a way to avoid boredom. Seems to me that you are describing something much more intense. Seems to me you are talking about some sort of running away from socialization to avoid it and these people are not thinking that their actions are noble, they just think that it is a relief and a safer way to be. Am I right about this? Do you see two different attitudes like I have described?...and if so can you add something to show precisely the kinds of attitudes you were talking about in hour blog posting?
chownah
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:06 pm
by Coyote
Thanks Robert. Being honest with yourself is a good policy.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#pali
Retro: The suttas record various motives for exercising generosity. The Anguttara Nikaya (A.iv,236) enumerates the following eight motives:
Asajja danam deti: one gives with annoyance, or as a way of offending the recipient, or with the idea of insulting him.[5]
Bhaya danam deti: fear also can motivate a person to make an offering.
Adasi me ti danam deti: one gives in return for a favor done to oneself in the past.
Dassati me ti danam deti one also may give with the hope of getting a similar favor for oneself in the future.
Sadhu danan ti danam deti: one gives because giving is considered good.
Aham pacami, ime ne pacanti, na arahami pacanto apacantanam adatun ti danam deti: "I cook, they do not cook. It is not proper for me who cooks not to give to those who do not cook." Some give urged by such altruistic motives.
Imam me danam dadato kalyano kittisaddo abbhuggacchati ti danam deti: some give alms to gain a good reputation.
Cittalankara-cittaparikkarattham danam deti: still others give alms to adorn and beautify the mind.
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:56 pm
by peteG
Here is the latest post to my blog:
http://mindfullasd.blogspot.com/2013/06 ... ivion.html It is an example of the intense feelings that may come up when entering into social situations and why I sometimes avoid them.
Pete
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:18 am
by dagon
Thank you for this thread and its content.
As i move along the path of my development i find that i seek to spend time with Buddhist and do not seek the company of those who are on a different path. i find those on other paths not to be relevant to my life or conducive to my intended development. I do not think of this as avoidance or renunciation - but then honesty with myself may not be my strength. How am i to judge what is the truth and what is illusion?
Metta
Paul
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:40 am
by Ben
dagon wrote:Thank you for this thread and its content.
As i move along the path of my development i find that i seek to spend time with Buddhist and do not seek the company of those who are on a different path. i find those on other paths not to be relevant to my life or conducive to my intended development. I do not think of this as avoidance or renunciation -
You may find that in time, this will change.
dagon wrote:but then honesty with myself may not be my strength. How am i to judge what is the truth and what is illusion?
This self awareness is excellent. And the answer to your question is that as you continue to investigate reality as it pertains to the psycho-physical matrix, you will become increasingly more penetratingly self-reflexive.
kind regards,
Ben
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:01 am
by BlackBird
I'm not sure if Craving can exactly equate to dukkha, given that craving is stated by the Buddha to be the
cause of dukkha. If that is so we are left with no way out, for if what determines something is itself then is it not permanent? Retro I am aware you have read Nyanavira's work so I think it might come in handy in this situation, where he describes that a hetu/sankhara determines something else. Even Avijja isn't determined by the very same Avijja, but avijja in the immediecy is determined by avijja in the reflection upon such immediacy. So no sankhara has itself as it's sankhara in essence is what I am trying to illustrate. Even if you chose to ignore Ven Nyanavira's work on sankhara one still is left with the fact that the Four Noble Truths state that with craving as
condition -> Dukkha.
Mind you I've still got a ways to go before I'm qualified to be making categorical statements in this department so please do not think that I'm talking with any degree of certainty
metta
Jack
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:53 pm
by peteG
I’ve published a new entry to my blog – it is advice for people who need help looking other people in the eyes
http://mindfullasd.blogspot.com/2013/07 ... -eyes.html
Pete
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:32 pm
by mikenz66
Hi Pete,
Your blog is interesting, and makes some very good points. However the quotes you have there are not accurate.
See:
http://www.fakebuddhaquotes.com/he-who- ... y-of-life/ for a discussion of this one:
“He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self, and looks on everything with an impartial eye.”
Mike
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:19 pm
by peteG
You mean you can't trust everything on the internet? Thanks for the info, I changed it to the proper source
Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance
Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:47 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings Pete,
This customised search engine might help you exclude some dodgy material from your future research...
Google Saffron
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=00545 ... cbjbznmwso
Metta,
Retro.