Need to get away from university party life in Canada

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Re: Need to get away from university party life in Canada

Postby Modus.Ponens » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:04 pm

mogg wrote:Citation? In a situation where someone has family responsibilities (e.g Ghatikara the potter) this is understandable, otherwise, you are talking nonsense as far as I'm concerned. Who are you to judge if someone is ready to ordain or not? Are you a Buddha? Have you and Coyote thought about the possibility that the poster could die before he finishes his degree? None of us know how long we have on this Earth which is why every senior Monastic I have come across has tried persuading me and everyone else to ordain ASAP. They frown on the notion that many people have that they will 'wait till they're retired to ordain', because like I already said, you could die tomorrow. The poster (or Coyote) could meet a girl and get married if he stays at uni. Anything could happen.
Let me remind you that Ajahn Brahm publicly states that all his uni years were a complete waste of time. There is no time to waste. Ajahn Amaro rocked up to Wat Pa Nanachat as a visitor passing through and ordained the following day.


When you stop saying that we're talking rubish and nonsense, I'll try to look for that quote.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Need to get away from university party life in Canada

Postby mogg » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:07 am

Coyote wrote:I think we are just going to have to disagree

Easily robed is easily disrobed - Ajahn Chah


Nobody is talking about wasting time, or waiting a long time before ordination. Ordination doesn't automatically guarantee good practice on the path, so your comments about dying tomorrow are irrelevant. Everything I have read, about Buddhism and ordination suggests that jumping in blind is likely not going to go well. There is a reason why you cannot ordain before 20, and in many places not before several years of inquiry. Easily robed then easily disrobed is a burden on the monastic community.


Less BJJ and more dhamma study Coyote.

This is from the Buddhist monastic code as translated by Venerable Thanissaro:

An applicant for the Going-forth must be at least fifteen years old or, if not yet fifteen, "capable of chasing crows away." According to the Commentary, this means that, while holding a clod of earth in one hand, he can chase crows away from food placed in front of him while he is eating it with his other hand.

An applicant for full Acceptance must be at least twenty years old, counting from the time his consciousness first arose at conception in his mother's womb. As this is difficult — if not impossible — to date with any accuracy, the usual practice in calculating a person's age is to add six months to the number of years since his birth, to allow for his having been born prematurely.


So whilst one has to be 20 to gain full ordination, you can become a novice much younger (as indeed we see in Burma, Thailand, Sri Lanka etc where little kids are novice monks).

Ajahn Chah himself completed only 4 years of primary school.

You are correct that ordination doesn't guarantee good practice on the path, that is entirely up to the individual. It is however, the path recommended by the Buddha. It is not for you to worry about burdens on monastic communities, don't speak of things you know nothing about. The abbots I have met would sooner you ordained, gave it a shot, and subsequently disrobed, than not ordained at all. This particular poster could become an Arahant in 1 yr or he could disrobe in 1 yr. It is not for you to play soothsayer.
The fact is, there is a young man on here expressing a desire (however potentially misplaced) of going to a monastery, and he is being discouraged by certain posters. On a Buddhist forum.
For shame.
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Re: Need to get away from university party life in Canada

Postby Coyote » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:48 am

Hi Mogg.

I am well aware that novices may be younger.
I can only speak for myself, but neither of us was trying to discourage anyone from ordination, certainly not I. Merely offering the advice to reflect and not be so hasty in making the decision become a bhikkhu. It is a decision that I feel would benefit from a sincere examination of one's intentions, and time. Your time at university is a good time for that, as it has been for me.


:anjali:
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: Need to get away from university party life in Canada

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:04 pm

Coyote wrote:Hi Mogg.

I am well aware that novices may be younger.
I can only speak for myself, but neither of us was trying to discourage anyone from ordination, certainly not I. Merely offering the advice to reflect and not be so hasty in making the decision become a bhikkhu. It is a decision that I feel would benefit from a sincere examination of one's intentions, and time. Your time at university is a good time for that, as it has been for me.


:anjali:


Yes. The point is that a more mature reflection, knowing what you're geting into, etc, etc, will almost certainly be of benefit in the long run _ if you're sincere, you'll not only become a bhikkhu, but also stay a bhikkhu.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Need to get away from university party life in Canada

Postby mogg » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:14 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Coyote wrote:Hi Mogg.

I am well aware that novices may be younger.
I can only speak for myself, but neither of us was trying to discourage anyone from ordination, certainly not I. Merely offering the advice to reflect and not be so hasty in making the decision become a bhikkhu. It is a decision that I feel would benefit from a sincere examination of one's intentions, and time. Your time at university is a good time for that, as it has been for me.


:anjali:


Yes. The point is that a more mature reflection, knowing what you're geting into, etc, etc, will almost certainly be of benefit in the long run _ if you're sincere, you'll not only become a bhikkhu, but also stay a bhikkhu.

You will never know what you are 'getting yourself into' until you go to a monastery and live the life for awhile. Wild speculation from armchair travellers like yourself carries no weight.
Ajahn Siripanno went to Wat Pah Nanachat for a short term compulsory visit. He had no idea what to expect, had no interest in becoming a monk, and by his own admission hated it. He is still there some 18 years later (give or take a few years).
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Re: Need to get away from university party life in Canada

Postby SDC » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:38 pm

Instead of slinging nonsense maybe we could be so bold as to allow the possibility that some may need to do more research beforehand and others may be able to jump right in. Or is that just too daring to admit that there is more than one way to skin a cat? :roll:
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Re: Need to get away from university party life in Canada

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:56 pm

mogg wrote:You will never know what you are 'getting yourself into' until you go to a monastery and live the life for awhile. Wild speculation from armchair travellers like yourself carries no weight.
Ajahn Siripanno went to Wat Pah Nanachat for a short term compulsory visit. He had no idea what to expect, had no interest in becoming a monk, and by his own admission hated it. He is still there some 18 years later (give or take a few years).


What you're doing is speculation (don't know if it's wild) so I don't see why you're being so dogmatic about something you know as much as me, to the point of saying the unpleasant things you said. All you presented was examples of bhikkhus who ordained soon after arriving at the monastery and stayed ordained. I'm sure you're aware that there are many cases of bhikkhus who disrobe. So please discuss the particular case and, of course, abstain from making inflamatory remarks.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Need to get away from university party life in Canada

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:44 am

Well, yes, I should had mentioned that he should visit the monastery to experience the life in it. I didn't say the contrary, but I didn't say it would be beneficial either. So you have a point there.

And since you were somewhat civil in your last post I went to look for the quote. It's from the vinaya, but the text I'm quoting quotes the vinaya:

When this story unfolds, the elder was dwelling in Avanti at his favorite residence, the Osprey's Haunt on Precipice Mountain. A lay disciple of his named Sona Kutikanna came to him and expressed the wish to go forth under him as a monk. But Kaccana, seeing perhaps that the householder was not yet ready to take such a big step, discouraged him with the words: "Difficult, Sona, is it to sleep alone, to eat one meal a day, and to observe celibacy for as long as life lasts. While remaining a householder, you should apply yourself to the Buddha's teaching, and at the proper times you may sleep alone, eat one meal a day, and observe celibacy."

With these words Sona's enthusiasm for ordination subsided. Some time later, however, the urge was rekindled, and he approached the Venerable Maha Kaccana with the same request. A second time the elder discouraged him, and a second time Sona's desire for ordination abated. When Sona approached him for the third time and asked for ordination, Maha Kaccana gave him the "going forth" (pabbajja), that is, the initial ordination as a novice (samanera).


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el405.html by Bhikkhu Bodhi

So regarding ordination, it's not the case that the best option is always to ordain. And in this case it seemed from the tone of the OP and the content that he wasn't ready. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he will be a great monk if he stops studying now and leaves for Thailand to go forth. But if he was talking seriously about the lack of hair remark, I don't think so. But, please, go ahead and meditate and visit monasteries as much as you wish. Just be wise enough to have a plan B.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Need to get away from university party life in Canada

Postby mogg » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:10 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:Well, yes, I should had mentioned that he should visit the monastery to experience the life in it. I didn't say the contrary, but I didn't say it would be beneficial either. So you have a point there.

And since you were somewhat civil in your last post I went to look for the quote. It's from the vinaya, but the text I'm quoting quotes the vinaya:

When this story unfolds, the elder was dwelling in Avanti at his favorite residence, the Osprey's Haunt on Precipice Mountain. A lay disciple of his named Sona Kutikanna came to him and expressed the wish to go forth under him as a monk. But Kaccana, seeing perhaps that the householder was not yet ready to take such a big step, discouraged him with the words: "Difficult, Sona, is it to sleep alone, to eat one meal a day, and to observe celibacy for as long as life lasts. While remaining a householder, you should apply yourself to the Buddha's teaching, and at the proper times you may sleep alone, eat one meal a day, and observe celibacy."

With these words Sona's enthusiasm for ordination subsided. Some time later, however, the urge was rekindled, and he approached the Venerable Maha Kaccana with the same request. A second time the elder discouraged him, and a second time Sona's desire for ordination abated. When Sona approached him for the third time and asked for ordination, Maha Kaccana gave him the "going forth" (pabbajja), that is, the initial ordination as a novice (samanera).


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el405.html by Bhikkhu Bodhi

So regarding ordination, it's not the case that the best option is always to ordain. And in this case it seemed from the tone of the OP and the content that he wasn't ready. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he will be a great monk if he stops studying now and leaves for Thailand to go forth. But if he was talking seriously about the lack of hair remark, I don't think so. But, please, go ahead and meditate and visit monasteries as much as you wish. Just be wise enough to have a plan B.

Thanks for the reference Modus.

Clearly however, this is the province of the Elder (Abbot) who could have used psychic powers for all we know to scan the layman's mind. It is not for us to make these judgements. The OP should go to as many monasteries as he can.
It is the Sangha's responsibility to screen applicants, not us.
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