Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

I posted the same question, in another Buddhist forum about two years ago without knowing that Tiger Woods was a Buddhist and he was meditating as a very young child. If I am not wrong, I think that he played 18 hole golf at par at the age of five.
I think that most of prominent players win in Olympics, tennis (mainly Abrahamic Religions) must have attain some form of Jhana (keeping aside drug abuse). Even cricket players such as Muralitharan (Hindu religion), Shane Warn may come under this category.
Unfortunately most of these people did not support their attainment with following Dharma. In his public apology to his family Tiger Woods stated that fall of his fame is due to failing to follow the Five Precepts.
What are your thoughts?

Maybe if they have a dedicate sitting practice, but I would say it would be impossible to attain jhana with that level f activity. You can attain a great deal of Samadhi and still be a ways ff from Jhana... For sure elite athletes have developed some above average level of concentration though... Usually it's called 'the zone'.

Hi Marc
Thanks. I do sitting meditation too. But is it so crucial? How about walking meditation? I never heard about the zone. Can you give some links so I can learn bit more about it?

SarathW wrote:What are your thoughts?

That 'concentration' is a poor and misleading rendering of samādhi.

I do not think Tiger has had the time to develop what is needed to attain the jhānas.

Thanks all,
I found some info about “flow” in the following link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Flow has been experienced throughout history and across cultures. The teachings of Buddhism and Taoism speak of a state of mind known as the "action of inaction" or "doing without doing" that greatly resembles the idea of flow. Also, Hindu texts on Advaita philosophy such as Ashtavakra Gita and the Yoga of Knowledge such as Bhagavad-Gita refer to a similar state.

SDC wrote:

SarathW wrote:What are your thoughts?

That 'concentration' is a poor and misleading rendering of samādhi.

I do not think Tiger has had the time to develop what is needed to attain the jhānas.

Hi SDC
I think Jhana and samadhi are two diffrent things. I do not intend to start the old debate again.

Neither do I.

SarathW wrote:Hi Marc
Thanks. I do sitting meditation too. But is it so crucial? How about walking meditation? I never heard about the zone. Can you give some links so I can learn bit more about it?

I guess it depends the nature of the Jhana. I haven't done much walking meditation, so i cant say from experience. the only teacher I've heard say Jhana was possible while walking was Bhante Vimalaramsi, who teaches a very light type of Jhana.

I dont have any info about 'the zone'. It's a term athletes use for when they have strong concentration while playing. I dont think its anything close to Jhana though.

Being in the zone is when one is able to accomplish the task at hand seemingly effortlessly and with great precision although this definition doesn't describe the felt experience of being in the zone that well if suffices for now I suppose. I would say that being in the zone while meditating is a prerequisite for the arising of jhana.

Concentration reduces the five hindrances, including kāmacchanda(sense desires), so, I'm pretty sure we can cross out Tiger Woods among jhāna attainers. Pretty much anyone who can attain jhāna would be, to some degree, living a hermit-like lifestyle (whether a monastic or not). In many retreats the 8 precepts are followed, for example.

Even practicing samatha bhāvanā for a small period will reduce sensual desires, not to mention the degree to which it needs to be practiced for jhāna ('Sutta-style' or 'Visuddhimagga-style').

I am reading a book titled The Art of Living by S.N.Genka. (Very good book to read)
He says in Page 76:
Right concentration
In the daily actions of ordinary life, concentration is also required, but it is not necessarily the same as right concentration. A person may be concentration on satisfying a sensual desire or forestalling a fear. A cat waits with all its attention focuses on a mouse hole, ready to pounce as soon as a mouse appears. .. A child in bed at night stares fearfully at the darkest corner of the room, imagining monsters hidden in the shadows. None of these is right concentration that can be used for liberation.
Samadhi must have as its focus an object that is free from all craving, all aversion, and all illusion.

----------------
(he is talking about the breath meditation. It appears to me that sports people have wrong concentration as it has the craving, fear and illusion as the base)

Why don't you ask Tiger Woods?
They certainly experience flow, being in the zone.
But how does that relate to samadhi and jhana?
Ask yourself, does sports activity clearly relate to the typical presentation of the 1st jhana as "rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal". I don't think so. How is sports activity withdraw? See the quotes bellow, if you are not having happiness/pleasure/bliss/joy (sukkha) that rules out the first 3jhana. But, there is certainly something going on with flavors of absorption, altered sense of consciousness, concentration.

Take some passages from Csikszentmihalyi, Finding Flow:
1)"Flow tends to occur when a person faces a clear set of goals that require appropriate responses"
2)"challenges and skills are in balance, attention becomes ordered and fully invested. ... There is no space in consciousness for distracting thoughts, irrelevant feelings. Self-consciousness disappears, yet one feels stronger ... sense of time is distorted"
3)"in flow, we are not happy, because to experience happiness we must focus on our inner states, and that would take away attention from the task at hand"

I agree that flow is pointing to a state of mind known as the "action of inaction" or "doing without doing". But what is that state of mind in Buddhism? (assuming there is a parallel)

tiger woods was, by extension of his mother i think, a student of thanissaro. i was at wat metta when he cheated on his wife, and thanissaro was doing a facepalm when he heard fox said it wouldn't have happened if he had been christian.

Ven. Thanissaro says:

"and §152 makes the point that jhāna can be considered right concentration only if it is devoid of unskillful qualities such as the hindrances.
Absorption in sensual passion, for instance, even though it may be very single-minded, does not count as part of the path.

Thus the definition for the first level of jhāna specifies that it counts as a path factor only when the mind is secluded from sensuality and unskillful mental qualities."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part3.html

Relevant passage:

Also with seeing consciousness there is Ekaggatā.
Generally speaking, Ekaggatā is also one of the Jhānaṅgas.
But when it accompanies seeing consciousness, it is not called
Jhānaṅga. It has no status of Jhāna. Although it is Ekaggatā,
one-pointedness, it is very, very weak. We have to understand
that although these Cetasikas are called Jhānaṅgas, when they
arise with these Cittas, they are not considered Jhānaṅgas.
Although the Cetasikas which are ordinarily Jhānaṅga factors
are found in the Dvipañcaviññāṇa Cittas, they are not
reckoned as Jhāna factors here. With the fivefold senseconsciousness
there arise Ekaggatā and Vedanā. Both
Ekaggatā and Vedanā are not called Jhānaṅga when they
accompany fivefold sense-consciousness.

Page 45:

http://buddhispano.net/sites/default/fi ... es-III.pdf