is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:33 am

alan... wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
alan... wrote:i realize that. however in the west there is literally a very well known and very specific vipassana movement.


Possibly that should be "in the USA".

In my opinion the wikipedia article is pretty much nonsense - The Thai Forest Tradition, which in itself is a fairly broad umbrella, is fairly straight forward Theravada monasticism, with a Thai edge.


in englandhttp://www.dipa.dhamma.org/

in australiahttp://www.insightmeditationaustralia.org/

so not just in the US.

the article is nonsense? sure why not. the point i was making with it is that the word "vipassana" is frequently used to denote a certain tradition of practice and that i was not simply confused about what the definition is. the article existing at all proves this when combined with all the web sites i posted. that's all i was trying to show as the person didn't seem to know what i was talking about and you said something about there being "confusion" so i was trying to clear it up.



I would't associate Goenka centres with "vipsana movement", they act and teach pretty much in isolation.

Where there is overlap, in the UK, is at somewhere like http://gaiahouse.co.uk/. More traditional forms are the "main stream" here (in my perception).
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:09 pm

Mr Man wrote:I would't associate Goenka centres with "vipsana movement", they act and teach pretty much in isolation.
That is your ongoing negative opinion directed at Goenka's method, which when challenged, you have never really reasonably backed up.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:36 pm

What about the IMC?
They teach essentially the same thing as Goenka (as I understand) and are from the same teacher Goenka's techneque originally stems. some isolation.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:22 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:I would't associate Goenka centres with "vipsana movement", they act and teach pretty much in isolation.
That is your ongoing negative opinion directed at Goenka's method, which when challenged, you have never really reasonably backed up.
That is a "negative" opinion is your perception. It is however a fairly accurate opinion.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:29 pm

Cittasanto wrote:What about the IMC?
They teach essentially the same thing as Goenka (as I understand) and are from the same teacher Goenka's techneque originally stems. some isolation.


And yet they are quite separate and do not mix, unless things have changed. You will see or hear no reference to Goenka at IMC or hear no reference to Mother Sayama, Sayagi U Ba Khin's foremost disciple, at Goenka retreats.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:28 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:What about the IMC?
They teach essentially the same thing as Goenka (as I understand) and are from the same teacher Goenka's techneque originally stems. some isolation.


And yet they are quite separate and do not mix, unless things have changed. You will see or hear no reference to Goenka at IMC or hear no reference to Mother Sayama, Sayagi U Ba Khin's foremost disciple, at Goenka retreats.


if you go to one place they ask you to practice only their techneque, yet at another they ask you to only practice their techneque; this is nothing new, and does not mean they are not within the Vipassana umbrella.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby 123ertyy » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:34 pm

Im glad that my country got many resources for meditation and to learn dhamma, since dhamma sermons can be heard from the media frequently. not many reap fortune out of it. I have to say that i had a chance to meet a monk who thrived many years in the forests meditating. Im sure he has attained high level of consciousness as you hear the words coming out of him. pure bliss, i felt why i'm still here laying back and trying to entertain the 6 senses ...

Gotta hurry up people, life's short! :)
We die someday.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:32 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:What about the IMC?
They teach essentially the same thing as Goenka (as I understand) and are from the same teacher Goenka's techneque originally stems. some isolation.


And yet they are quite separate and do not mix, unless things have changed. You will see or hear no reference to Goenka at IMC or hear no reference to Mother Sayama, Sayagi U Ba Khin's foremost disciple, at Goenka retreats.


if you go to one place they ask you to practice only their techneque, yet at another they ask you to only practice their techneque; this is nothing new, and does not mean they are not within the Vipassana umbrella.


Hi Cittasanto, sorry but I don't see the relevance of your post.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:52 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:if you go to one place they ask you to practice only their techneque, yet at another they ask you to only practice their technique; this is nothing new, and does not mean they are not within the Vipassana umbrella.


Hi Cittasanto, sorry but I don't see the relevance of your post.

relivance = that is how meditation schools operate.
they don't teach a system outside of what they teach, and ask students to follow their style.
you appear to be trying to call a border collie a separate species from a sheep dog instead of different breeds of canine.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:18 pm

Cittasanto wrote:relivance = that is how meditation schools operate.
they don't teach a system outside of what they teach, and ask students to follow their style.

They teach the same system but I think we are just getting distracted here.
you appear to be trying to call a border collie a separate species from a sheep dog instead of different breeds of canine.

Not sure what you mean.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:54 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Hi Cittasanto, sorry but I don't see the relevance of your post.
He is pointing out how completely irrelevant your claim that Goenka does not belong under the vipasssana umbrella is.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:01 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Hi Cittasanto, sorry but I don't see the relevance of your post.
He is pointing out how completely irrelevant your claim that Goenka does not belong under the vipasssana umbrella is.

Accept I never made that claim.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:05 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Hi Cittasanto, sorry but I don't see the relevance of your post.
He is pointing out how completely irrelevant your claim that Goenka does not belong under the vipasssana umbrella is.

Accept I never made that claim.
Your claim: I would't associate Goenka centres with "vipsana movement", they act and teach pretty much in isolation. Do clarify.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:18 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Do clarify.

It really is very clear. They act and teach pretty much in isolation.
A movement is not an umbrella.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:25 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Do clarify.

It really is very clear. They act and teach pretty much in isolation.
A movement is not an umbrella.
And the others do not? Goenka is very much part of the over all vipassana meditation movement.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:27 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Do clarify.

It really is very clear.
A movement is not an umbrella.

Vipassana is the umbrella term which catches different systems.
like the messianic movement of Jesus is not the same as another messianic movement, yet they share similarities which would enable them to fall under the messianic umbrella term.
This is the same as a boarder collie and a German Shepard being classed as "dogs."
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:05 pm

Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.

There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.

We could also have an umbrella term vipasana which could cover both.

I personally would prefer to see vipasana return to it's literal home (see robertk's post).

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=107299#p107299
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:57 pm

Mr Man wrote:Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.

That is one group of many.

There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.

how are they synonymous?

We could also have an umbrella term vipasana which could cover both.

both the movement and the technique of meditation of body sweeping?

I personally would prefer to see vipasana return to it's literal home (see robertk's post).

as the practice of insight?
sure but that would require a massive consensus.

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=107299#p107299[/quote]
and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:07 pm

"If you open a center
and have more than one lineage teaching there,
it will be the work of Mara"

Cittasanto wrote:and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.



Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Billymac29 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:25 pm

Mr Man wrote:"If you open a center
and have more than one lineage teaching there,
it will be the work of Mara"

Cittasanto wrote:and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.



Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.


what does this have to do with the main stream of vipassana??

:focus:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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