Cittasanto wrote:As no other conditions have been shown which would adversely affect the Buddhas Teachings as existing, can this thread be closed now?
Digha-Nikaya Pithika-vagga, Dasuttara Sutta, page 248, 6th Syn.
Edn., Anguttara Nikaya III Atthaka.nipata, Akkhana Sutta, page 60,
6th Syn. Edn.
i) paccantaro--a border district where the Buddha
Sasana does not flourish;
ii) arupino--the four Brahma planes of
iii) vitalingo--persons with congenital
defects such as idiocy, etc.
iv) asannasatta--a brahma plane of the
form-sphere of non-consciousness.'
v) micchaditthi--birth among
people holding wrong views,
vi) peta--the peta world;
vii) tiracchana-the animal world, and
Source: Necessary Conditions of Practice, in Bodhipakkhiya Dipani
Three Types of Individuals
In the same Pitakas referred to above, the Buddha gave another classification of beings, dividing them into three classes according as they resembled three kinds of sick persons. The three kinds of sick persons are:
* A person who is certain of regaining health in due time even though he does not take any medicine or treatment.
* A person who is certain of failing to make a recovery, and dying from the illness, no matter to what extent he may take medicines or treatment.
* A person who will recover if he takes the right medicine and treatment, but who will fail to recover and die if he fails to take the right medicine and treatment.
These are the three kinds of sick persons.
Persons who obtained niyata vyakarana (sure prediction made by a Buddha) from previous Buddhas, and who as such are certain of obtaining release from worldly ills in this life, resemble the first class of sick persons.
An individual of the padaparama class resembles the second class of sick person. Just as this second class of sick person has no chance of recovery from his illness, an individual of the padaparama class has no chance of obtaining release from worldly ills during this life. In future lives, however, he can obtain release either within the present Buddha Sasana, or within future Buddha Sasanas. The story of the youth Chattamanava, of the frog who became a deva, and of the ascetic Saccaka, are illustrations of persons who obtained release from worldly ills in their next following existences within the present Buddha Sasana.
An individual of the neyya class resembles the third class of sick person. just as a person of this third class is related to the two ways of either recovering or dying from the sickness, so is a neyya individual related to the two eventualities of either obtaining release from worldly ills during the present life, or failing to obtain such release.
If such a neyya individual, knowing what is good for him according to his age, discards what should be discarded, searches for the right teacher, and obtains the right guidance from him and puts forth sufficient effort, he can obtain release from worldly ills in this very life. If, however, he becomes addicted to wrong views and wrong ways of conduct, if he finds himself unable to discard sensual pleasures, if although able to discard sensual pleasures he does not obtain the guidance of a good teacher, if although obtaining the guidance of a good teacher, he is unable to evoke sufficient effort, if although inclined to put forth effort he is unable to do so through old age, if although young he is liable to sickness, he cannot obtain release from worldly ills in this present life. King Ajatasattu, the millionaire Mahadhana's son, Bhikkhu Sudinna, are cases of persons who could have obtained release from worldly ills in this present existence.
King Ajatasattu failed to obtain release because he had committed patricide. It is stated that he will drift in future samsara (round of rebirths) for two asankheyyas (unit followed by 140 ciphers) world-cycles, after which he will become a paccekabuddha (solitary Buddha).
The millionaire Mahadhana's son indulged himself so excessively in sensual pleasures during his youth that he was unable to attain tranquillity of mind when he grew older. Far from obtaining release from worldly ills, he did not even get the opportunity of associating with the Ti-Ratanas. Seeing his plight at that stage, the Buddha said to Ananda: "Ananda, if this millionaire's son had become a bhikkhu in my sasana during his youth or first period of his life, he would have become an arahat and would have attained parinibbana in this present life. If, otherwise, he had become a bhikkhu during the second period of his life, he would have become an anagami, and on death would have been reborn in the suddhavasa brahma loka, whence he would have attained parinibbana, In the next alternative, if he had become a bhikkhu in my sasana at the beginning of the third period of life, he would have become either a sakadagami or a sotapanna, and would have attained permanent release from rebirth in the apaya loka." Thus said the Buddha to the Venerable Ananda. Thus, although, he (the millionaire Mahadhana's son) possessed parami ripe enough to make his present existence his last existence, not being a person who) had secured niyata vyakarana, he failed to obtain release from worldly ills in this present life because of the upheavals caused by the defilements within him, and this is despite the fact that he had the opportunity of encountering the Buddha Sasana. If further, his period of existence in the apaya loka is prolonged because of evil acts done in this existence, he would not be able to rise again and emerge out of those apaya lokas in time for the sasana of the future Metteyya Buddha. And, after that, the large number of world-cycles that follow are world-cycles where no Buddhas appear, there being no world-cycles within the vicinity of the present world where Buddhas are due to appear. Alas! far indeed is this millionaire's son from worldly ills even though he possessed parami ripe enough to make his present existence his last existence.
The general opinion current at the present is that, if the parami are complete, one cannot miss encountering a Buddha Sasana even if one does not wish to do so, and that one's release from worldly ills is ensured even though one may not desire such release. These people fail to pay attention to the existence of niyata (one who has obtained a sure prediction made by a Buddha) and aniyata (one who has not obtained a sure prediction made by a Buddha). Considering the two texts from the Pitaka mentioned above, and the story of the millionaire Mahadhana's son, it should be remembered that aniyata neyya individuals can attain release from worldly ills in this life only if they put forth sufficient effort, even if they possess parami sufficient to enable them to obtain such release. If industry and effort are lacking, the Paths and the Fruits cannot be attained within the present Buddha Sasana.
Apart from these classes of persons, there are also an infinite number of other beings who, like the ascetics Alara and Uddaka, possess sufficient parami for release from worldly ills, but who do not get the opportunity, because they happen to be in one or the other of the eight inopportune places (atthakkhanas) where it is not possible to attain the Paths and the Fruits thereof.
Ben wrote:As per a request, I am re-opening this thread to give it another shot.
Cittasanto wrote:Hi All,
although I have seen this sentiment before, it is raising its head again, and I am curious
to quote the postoriginal post of inspiration wrote:would somebody who have no more doubt, doubt that we live 2500 years after the Buddha with other conditions?
I am curious in relation to what the Buddha Taught how these "other conditions" make it no longer relevant today?
I personally see no difference on the practical level and the level of the teaching, sure externally we have different means of distracting, pleasuring, & harming ourselves and others, but on the level of practice it is the same from my perspective. Even on the more metaphysical level of rebirth, heavens... these have not been disproved to my knowledge either, so can still be seen as relevant & useful by those who believe in such things.
those of you who believe there are different conditions... than 2600 years ago please clarify what they are and why?
so here are more precise questions for those who believe there are "other conditions" and remember responses maybe challenged so use evidence/support where possible.Question 1 wrote:what are these other conditions?Question 2 wrote:why & how are they different to causes in the time of the Buddha?Question 3 wrote:how & why are the teachings disproved, irrelevant, not appropriate due to these new conditions?Question 4 wrote:how is this outside world more materialistic/worse for practice/what ever else you believe it to be, and how does that change things in regard to the teachings & practice?Question 5 wrote:how are we different (in relation to the Buddhas teachings & practice) to people back when the teachings took place? and why does this matter?Question 6a wrote:how & why is it more complicated/difficult to see today than then? how do we proliferate, ignore the obvious, fool ourselves any more than then?
if 6a is not relivant to you please answer 6b insteadQuestion 6b wrote:how & why is it easier to see today than in the Buddha's time? how don't we proliferate, ignore the obvious, fool ourselves less than then?
if both 6a & 6b are not relevant please come up with your own question and answer it, but please indicate a question you are answering
(edited to try to make it easier to understand.)
what are these other conditions? Everywhere exapt the rare places where are the needed conditions
why & how are they different to causes in the time of the Buddha? They are not differents, even if there is a Buddha and your conditions are not well developed, you will not have the right conditions
63. A fool who knows his foolishness is wise at least to that extent, but a fool who thinks himself wise is a fool indeed.
64. Though all his life a fool associates with a wise man, he no more comprehends the Truth than a spoon tastes the flavor of the soup.
befriend wrote:what about nicotine that is a chemical, dont know if nicotine is natural or not, but def a deterrrent to the holy life. they might have had tobacco but i dont think they would have the addictive additives they have today.
Cittasanto wrote:this thread is specific (as already noted earlier).
Alex123 wrote:Buddha was alive 2,500 years ago. He could straiten out misunderstandings of His teaching. Today we don't have such condition. It would have been interesting if we could compare His teaching and what we have of it today with all the schools and many different opinions...
Plus, it seems that people were much tougher in those times than today. This is another condition.
Hanzze wrote:Cittasanto wrote:this thread is specific (as already noted earlier).
Maybe I am not very smart or do not understand. Can you express the specific one more time. No need to take reference of what was said or quoted before. So what is the specific use of this topic (according to your perceptions in this regard).
Thanks for your patient.
Hanzze wrote:I really think that you need rethink what you actually try to express as it seems that eigher to answer your questions direct or indirect, it is how ever not in line with your thought-consturctions in regard of todays condition. Let us understand.
Do you like to have a simply "NO" on your topic question?
Users browsing this forum: Mr Man and 5 guests