Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Greetings,

Gombrich wrote:How, then, can Theravāda Buddhism be disseminated? How can it even be saved? I find the answer obvious. We have to return to the Buddha’s teaching. ... Yes; we have to take the Buddha seriously!

Metta,
Retro.

I agree with both of you. And thanks to tiltbillings for the link.

There are of course exceptions (not sure how common or uncommon). A local Burmese venerable Sayadaw U Pandita is very active with non-Burmese.

Concerning Gombrich's aritlce "Comfort or Challenge? "....it saddens me that in my view Gombrich's display of ignorance of the attitudes of the vast majority of Buddhists in Thailand has undermined is attempts to promote some good ideas about improving the world.

This article is so off the mark and lacking in reasoning supported by knowledge of the world and the Buddha's teachings that I really don't know where to start.......it really appears that he thinks that his having expereinced the literati of Theravada scholars that he can from knowing them understand the attitudes of the bulk of Thai Buddhists....MOST Thai Buddhists don't even know that the International Conference on Dissemination of Theravada Buddhism in the 21st Century happened and frankly if they knew they wouldn't care....on the other hand Gombrich's nancing around with the Buddhist "hi-so" probably has in his mind been a day of researching the attitudes of the common asian buddhist.....this sort of thing is a common mistake made by westerners but I am really very surprised that a man so adored by many and so in the limelight would write such an uninformed article......perhaps I'll re-read some of it and if I can distill out something worth focusing on I'll post some more......but for now I think I prefer the Comfort of just forgetting all about this fiasco rather than the Challenge of trying to straighten out this twisted presentation.
Sorry that this is so negative....but really this is my impression....please forgive me in my ignorance.
chownah
P.S. Perhaps if someone wants to bring up specific issues I would give my comments...for me to tackle the entire article would take way to much time and effort for me and frankly I do not see the article as worth that much effort.....too much bath water.....not enough baby....
chownah

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Gombrich wrote:How, then, can Theravāda Buddhism be disseminated? How can it even be saved? I find the answer obvious. We have to return to the Buddha’s teaching. ... Yes; we have to take the Buddha seriously!

Metta,
Retro.

Is Gombrich joking?
or
Yes indeed.....we should take the Buddha seriously when he taught that all things are impermanent (I guess this includes Theravada Buddhism) and that his sasana would assuredly end.......I guess......is this how Gombrich wants us to take the Buddha seriously?
chownah

If Its so wrong, and is so upsetting that you don't know how to start, well, you could start at the beginning.
What upsets you the most?
Tell us how your reasoning process is superior. Where did Gombrich make logical mistakes? How would you have done better?
Spitting out a criticism of something you haven't fully read, and barely understand, is extremely arrogant.

chownah wrote:Concerning Gombrich's aritlce "Comfort or Challenge? "....it saddens me that in my view Gombrich's display of ignorance of the attitudes of the vast majority of Buddhists in Thailand has undermined is attempts to promote some good ideas about improving the world.

This article is so off the mark and lacking in reasoning supported by knowledge of the world and the Buddha's teachings that I really don't know where to start.......it really appears that he thinks that his having expereinced the literati of Theravada scholars that he can from knowing them understand the attitudes of the bulk of Thai Buddhists....MOST Thai Buddhists don't even know that the International Conference on Dissemination of Theravada Buddhism in the 21st Century happened and frankly if they knew they wouldn't care....on the other hand Gombrich's nancing around with the Buddhist "hi-so" probably has in his mind been a day of researching the attitudes of the common asian buddhist.....this sort of thing is a common mistake made by westerners but I am really very surprised that a man so adored by many and so in the limelight would write such an uninformed article......perhaps I'll re-read some of it and if I can distill out something worth focusing on I'll post some more......but for now I think I prefer the Comfort of just forgetting all about this fiasco rather than the Challenge of trying to straighten out this twisted presentation.
Sorry that this is so negative....but really this is my impression....please forgive me in my ignorance.
chownah
P.S. Perhaps if someone wants to bring up specific issues I would give my comments...for me to tackle the entire article would take way to much time and effort for me and frankly I do not see the article as worth that much effort.....too much bath water.....not enough baby....
chownah

Greetings Chownah,
My reading of Gombrich is that its a little different to the arrogant western Buddhist who decry the Buddhism practiced in Asia as deficient.
In fairness to Gombrich, I believe his observations are valid and I think it speaks of a lack of willingness within the leadership of the Sangha to address issues such as the Sri Lankan civil war, the monk's protest (and massacre) in Myanmar in 2007 and resistence to the reintroduction of the Bhikkhuni Sangha.
Living in a Theravada-country full time I think you are in a position to offer some very valuable insights and I look forward to you responding to some (or all) of Gombrich's claims if and when or if you want to. Certainly, when I was in Myanmar I felt closer to the Burmese Buddhists than the vast majority of opinionated western Buddhists.
kind regards,

Ben

Thank you, Bhante.
I wonder whether Gombrich knew that the vast majority of his audience during that talk were non-English speakers?
Interesting...

Actually, I am sorry I referenced that talk. What is of more intertest is the websit itself. Lots of interesting things there for those who find lots of interesting things interesting.

Hi Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Actually, I am sorry I referenced that talk. What is of more intertest is the websit itself. Lots of interesting things there for those who find lots of interesting things interesting.

Indeed it is. I just downloaded the paper: mindfulness, depression and modes of mind for my wife.
kind regards,

Ben

I have reread the article and think that my previous post was too harsh in saying that there was not enough substance.....infact he broaches alot of important issues and although I do not agree with all that he said concerning all of them I think it is good that he raised those issues and I'm sure that it did take a bit of courage to say those things to those in attendance....perhaps he actually got some relief in knowing (if he knew) that most there would not understand him. I think in my previous post I did not properly take into account the audience to which he was speaking. It may very well be that his attempts to characterize the attitudes of the majority of Buddhists was actually a way to not be pointing the finger of blame too directly at any group of people....and it is his statements about the attitudes of the majority of buddhists that I feel are grossly wrong at least in my experience of Thai Buddhists.....everything that I have seen of Thai Buddhists (which is actually based on a pitifull small percentage of the population) indicates that they think that every country has its own style of Buddhism and that this is just fine and good.....I think that most Thai people would say that Lao Buddhism is the best thing for Lao people and Burmese Buddhism is the best thing for Burmese people and Thai Buddhism is the best thing for Thai people....Thai people are by and large quite nationalistic but they do not seem to extend this to Buddhism....again my expereince is based on a very tiny tiny percent of the population and I do not claim to have the knowledge to make a declaration about the majority of Thai people....I don't think that Gombrich has the knowledge either but I very well could be wrong.

Anyway if apologies are in order for my previous harshness then consider apologies as being offered all around.
chownah

I have read the lecture, and think Gombrich makes a good point when he says that Thai and other Theravada temples in the West function primarily as ethnic cultural centers, and don't really make an effort to introduce Theravada to peoples around the world. As he says in his most recent book, Gombrich is not actually a practicing Buddhist, but he is a sympathetic scholar who wants people to live up to their religious principles. As someone noted above, the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies has good website with a number of interesting papers worth reading.
Richard

appicchato wrote:so I asked myself: what's the point?...virtually no one in attendance would ever know what he was saying, or why...

Well, but it's on the internet now, and that's a primary source for those with a burgeoning interest in the Dhamma, as well as long-term practitioners. I think this speech trumps The Broken Buddha by couching the key problem - parochial nationalism - amidst very important modern ethical and moral issues (women, bhikkhunis, political murder, war, etc.).

These are essential points, worth addressing with great tenacity.

daverupa wrote:

appicchato wrote:so I asked myself: what's the point?...virtually no one in attendance would ever know what he was saying, or why...

Well, but it's on the internet now, and that's a primary source for those with a burgeoning interest in the Dhamma, as well as long-term practitioners.

Beg to differ but, for those who wield the power (in the primarily Buddhist countries (already mentioned)), and the real ability to change the status quo, it's not...there's a large chasm beween the Eastern and Western 'kingpins'...hopefully things will change, sooner rather than later...