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Is Theravada "Realist"? - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

Is Theravada "Realist"?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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ground
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby ground » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:06 am


pulga
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby pulga » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:40 am

I think the knotty point is that we conceive of rúpa by way of námarúpa. It's really a very nebulous concept. The Mahánidánasutta associates it with "resistance", so perhaps the only way we can get a sense of it is by abstracting it from the intractable nature of our experience and leaving it at that.

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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby Akuma » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:13 am


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Alex123
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby Alex123 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:12 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

chownah
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby chownah » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:12 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby Alex123 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:35 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Travis
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby Travis » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:06 pm

Just my opinion, but after reading through everything a couple of times and thinking on the things that people have said, which are very insightful, it seems to me that the (perhaps unsatisfying) answer to the question of "Is Buddhism Realist?" is that questions of existence and non-existence are in the end tied up in speculative views. This seems to be something we have to get used to letting go of, and not fall into into dispute over. Questions of the reality of something outside of experience seems to be putting aside the question of the fantasy or lack of reality within our experience. Not trying to be "that guy" or anything, I've just been thinking about this since the thread started, and this is the conclusion I have reached. I thought that I would share with you since you shared with me, and say thanks to all of you for helping me remember this.

Metta,
Travis

Akuma
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby Akuma » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:07 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby Alex123 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:22 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:05 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:25 am


chownah
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby chownah » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:03 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:07 am

Greetings,

CMA = AMCA = A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

chownah
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby chownah » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:05 am

I think that in considering what the Buddha thought about the "real world" that it benefits to read the Kalakalama Sutta. I found part of it in another thread:
-------------------------------------------------
Thus, monks, a Tathàgata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight;
he does not conceive of an unseen; he does not conceive of a
'thing-worth-seeing'; he does not conceive of a seer.

He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing;
he does not conceive of an unheard; he does not conceive of a
'thing-worth-hearing'; he does not conceive about a hearer.

He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from
sensation; he does not conceive of an unsensed; he does not
conceive of a 'thing-worth-sensing'; he does not conceive about one
who senses.

He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from
cognition; he does not conceive of an uncognized; he does not
conceive of a 'thing-worth-cognizing'; he does not conceive about
one who cognizes. -Kalakarama Sutta

"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of suffering." -Ud 1.10

Insight Meditation as Taught by Nanananda Thera:
http://www.everythingspirals.com/files/ ... hrough.pdf
------------------------------------
chownah

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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby Akuma » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:28 am


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:51 am


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Alex123
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:08 pm

Akuma,

A straightforward reading of the suttas, Abh, CMA, etc, plus our experience does suggest unperceived rūpa to exist.


Vibhaṅgapāḷi PTS 419 does say that rūpakkhandho is present even though there are no mental things such as: vedana, sañña, cetana, citta.
So rūpakkhandha can exist independent of mind.


With best wishes,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

chownah
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby chownah » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:16 am

Alex123,
I found this link in another thread....
http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/nibbana24.htm
seems like it might support the view that there is a "real world"....maybe have a look and see if it provides something new...or maybe it is the same stuff you have been talking about and I've just missed it....
chownah

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ground
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby ground » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:33 am

I have known beforehand that there are Theravadins who hold a realist view.
But the question Is Theravada "Realist"? implies that there is an authority with reference to Theravada tenets. If this is so who/what is that authority?

Kind regards

Akuma
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Re: Is Theravada "Realist"?

Postby Akuma » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:20 am



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