What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Postby santa100 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:08 pm

Looking further into the Bodhisattva stages, notice there's really no difference to the original teaching of the Buddha. The 52 Bodhisattva stages mentioned in the Mahayana's Avatamsaka Sutra is simply the elaboration on the vows and practice of an un-enlightened Bodhisatta before Complete Enlightenment. Even within Mahayana's doctrine, it is explicitly stated that after reaching the 51st stage, the Boddhisattva's still not done yet. THere's still that tinyest and subtlest level of delusion/ignorance that s/he would need to work on in order to completely eradicate it and move on to the 52nd stage, which is full Buddhahood. So, the reason a Bodhisattva "hang around" in this Samsara cannot exclusively be attributed to his compassionate vows to help sentient beings but also because there's still work left to be done to perfect his/her paramis. Looking from this angle, there's really no difference between Mahayana, Theravada, or Vajrayana..

starter
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Postby starter » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:41 pm

After pondering upon "One perception arose in me as another one ceased", which occurred to Ven. Sariputta during the sphere of cessation of perception and feeling (AN 10.7 see viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8350&start=20), it appeared to me it’s not that there’s an eternal true nature/"Buddha nature”/"essence of mind”/"true self” existing together with mindconsciousness as our present awareness while in Samsara, but that only as consciousness (“waves”) ceases at the sphere of cessation of perception and feeling (and probably also at the death of an arahant), the transcendental awareness arises.

It seems to me that any meditative experience, except the transcendental awareness occurring at the cessation of perception and feeling, is still mind consciousness, and should not be identified/perceived as nibbanized mind/the ultimate goal. A lasting radiant citta is probably not an indication of the final enlightenment; a “free, vast, supremely empty, absolutely pure, boundless, totally expansive citta" should probably not be labeled as the end of the path as well. Uprooting of assavas probably does not depend upon the radiance of the mind or the disappearance of such radiance. Our effort should better be made to develop/purify the mind, to obtain right liberating insight knowledge (4NT and 3 characteristics) to end ignorance/craving/clinging and enter nibbana, instead of getting lost in mistaking mind consciousness as "pure citta".

Metta to all,

Starter
Last edited by starter on Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

starter
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Postby starter » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:06 pm

Just looked at AN1 again and realized that the "luminous mind" freed from incoming defilements mentioned in AN1 is probably not the same mind as in the fourth jhāna, which is not yet free from incoming defilements -- such a mind still has the underline tendencies of greed/aversion/delusion since ignorance is not yet eradicated, and is still mind consciousness.

AN1:
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}

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Alex123
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:34 pm

It is important to be very clear on what "luminous" means. It can simply mean the mind free from hindrances. No need to make it eternal or anything like that.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

starter
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Postby starter » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:34 pm

Greetings!

Would it be better to translate the 6th type of vinnana as "mind consciousness (cognition) instead of "intellect consciousness"? The translation of "intellect consciousness" could lead to the failure of recognizing that a non-thinking mind during e.g. the 4th jhana or during a non-thinking mode at the present moment is actually still mind consciousness. The same applies to the translation of "intellect" instead of "mind", and "idea" instead of "mental phenomena". A mind can be absent of intellect, and mental phenomena includes not only idea -- it could be absent of idea. Such translations could be misleading.

"Pañña & Viññāṇa, friend: Of these qualities that are conjoined, not disjoined, Pañña is to be developed, Viññāṇa is to be fully comprehended." (MN 43)

Metta to all!

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manas
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Postby manas » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:08 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

pegembara
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Postby pegembara » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:17 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

pegembara
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Postby pegembara » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:39 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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manas
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Postby manas » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:42 am

The idea of a magic show, is to trick people into seeing something that isn't really happening, or isn't really there; it's about illusion. I'm not sure as to why the Buddha likened consciousness to this, but it could be that it kind of appears out of the meeting between sense and object (including mind and mind object), yet the impression almost everyone has (myself included, alas) it that "I am conscious, or "it is my consciousness". So, we are kind of tricked.

:anjali:
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

starter
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Postby starter » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:57 pm



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