Senuality doesn't equal to sensual pleasures

[starter]

Just would like to share with you a sutta I read about sensuality (sensual cravings):

AN 6.63
Nibbedhika Sutta: Penetrative
… "Sensuality should be known. The cause by which sensuality comes into play should be known. The diversity in sensuality should be known. The result of sensuality should be known. The cessation of sensuality should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of sensuality should be known.
"There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing [luring]; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. But these are not sensuality. They are called strings of sensuality in the discipline of the noble ones.

The passion for his resolves [in sensual pleasure] is a man's sensuality, not the beautiful sensual pleasures [pleasing forms, …; the baits of the world] found in the world. The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. The beauties remain as they are in the world, while the wise, in this regard, subdue their desire.
"And what is the cause by which sensuality comes into play? Contact is the cause by which sensuality comes into play.
"And what is the diversity in sensuality? Sensuality with regard to forms is one thing, sensuality with regard to sounds is another, sensuality with regard to aromas is another, sensuality with regard to flavors is another, sensuality with regard to tactile sensations is another. This is called the diversity in sensuality.

"And what is the result of sensuality? One who wants sensuality produces a corresponding state of existence, on the side of merit or demerit. This is called the result of sensuality.

"And what is the cessation of sensuality? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of sensuality; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the way leading to the cessation of sensuality.”

Metta to all!

[phil]

Thanks for sharing the sutta. It would be great I think if there was a lot more of that going on here!

I guess the passage you highlighted is akin to the sutta that was in the sutta study corner last week, that the tether that binds is not the sense object or the sense door but rather the resultant passion...

[rowyourboat]

There is no way you can artificially or should I say 'surgically' remove craving without removing all hopes/dreams/aspirations for the object concerned ie craving does not live in a vacume - it requires a 'desirable object' (one 'compound' concep, there). Desirable objects are illusions- do not exist. Without that understanding you will always be tinkering on the edges.

With metta

Matheesha

[starter]

"There is no way you can artificially or should I say 'surgically' remove craving without removing all hopes/dreams/aspirations for the object concerned ie craving does not live in a vacume - it requires a 'desirable object' (one 'compound' concep, there).

-- Good point!

Desirable objects are illusions- do not exist. Without that understanding you will always be tinkering on the edges.

-- I'd rather say the pleasing sense objects, the sensual pleasure and the one enjoying such pleasure are all empty (anatta). They are baits of Mara to hook us to Samsara.

Metta to all!

[Reductor]

I think this sutta is pointing out that vedana and rupa are necessary components to cognition and that it is the thirsting for them in hope that they will quench that very thirst is the cause of trouble. Losing sight of their nature leads people to embrace them or to flee them, when neither action leads to peace of mind or of heart.

I would caution against the more subtle fleeing that we see in ascetisicm and other life suppressing activity common in spiritual pursuits.

[rowyourboat]

"And what is the drawback of sensuality? There is the case where, on account of the occupation by which a clansman makes a living — whether checking or accounting or calculating or plowing or trading or cattle-tending or archery or as a king's man, or whatever the occupation may be — he faces cold, he faces heat, being harassed by mosquitoes & flies, wind & sun & creeping things, dying from hunger & thirst.

"If the clansman gains no wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'My work is in vain, my efforts are fruitless!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he experiences pain & distress in protecting it: 'How will neither kings nor thieves make off with my property, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' And as he thus guards and watches over his property, kings or thieves make off with it, or fire burns it, or water sweeps it away, or hateful heirs make off with it. And he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'What was mine is no more!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source, sensuality for the cause, the reason being simply sensuality, that kings quarrel with kings, nobles with nobles, priests with priests, householders with householders, mother with child, child with mother, father with child, child with father, brother with brother, sister with sister, brother with sister, sister with brother, friend with friend. And then in their quarrels, brawls, & disputes, they attack one another with fists or with clods or with sticks or with knives, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (men), taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge into battle massed in double array while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are wounded by arrows & spears, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (men), taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge slippery bastions while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are splashed with boiling cow dung and crushed under heavy weights, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (men) break into windows, seize plunder, commit burglary, ambush highways, commit adultery, and when they are captured, kings have them tortured in many ways. They flog them with whips, beat them with canes, beat them with clubs. They cut off their hands, cut off their feet, cut off their hands & feet. They cut off their ears, cut off their noses, cut off their ears & noses. They subject them to the 'porridge pot,' the 'polished-shell shave,' the 'Rahu's mouth,' the 'flaming garland,' the 'blazing hand,' the 'grass-duty (ascetic),' the 'bark-dress (ascetic),' the 'burning antelope,' the 'meat hooks,' the 'coin-gouging,' the 'lye pickling,' the 'pivot on a stake,' the 'rolled-up bed.' They have them splashed with boiling oil, devoured by dogs, impaled alive on stakes. They have their heads cut off with swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (people) engage in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct, they — on the break-up of the body, after death — re-appear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress in the future life, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Sesnsuality can only be genuinely eradicated by seeing it's drawbacks. To even assume a little bit of it is 'ok' is to be fooled into smuggling in sensuality by the back door!

With metta

Matheesha

[Reductor]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Sesnsuality can only be genuinely eradicated by seeing it's drawbacks. To even assume a little bit of it is 'ok' is to be fooled into smuggling in sensuality by the back door!

With metta

Matheesha

Who are you addressing?

Anyway, no one seems to be suggesting that a little bit is 'ok', just that the 'sensuality' to be eradicated is referring to the motive for attaining and holding objects of the five senses. In the above sutta the motive is clearly to gain and maintain, or tanha and upadana. If a person doesn't crave, they would feel no grief when they fail to obtain. If they did not cling, they would feel no grief at loss. No craving, no reason to pit oneself against others, no clinging, no reason to pit oneself against others, either.

The objects simply play a role in the imagining of what satisfaction would be like, which prevents one from realizing that the pursuit of those objects only leads to experiences that are clearly not satisfying, even from a mundane everyday point of view.

[rowyourboat]

Good post thereductor.



with metta

Matheesha