Intermediaries in the Pali Texts?

[qoheleth]

Greetings,

I feel that Theravada Buddhism is possibly being misrepresented on another forum that I sometimes frequent. The poster says that it is a western misunderstanding that Buddhists can become enlightened without an intermediary, and that the Pali texts make it clear that one can ONLY achieve Nibbana when practicing under a living Buddha.

Am I correct in believing that this gentleman is off track, or is there any truth to his claims?

Thanks in advance!

[mikenz66]

Hi qoheleth,

It might be easier to comment if you could give a link to the other discussion. The Theravada interpretation is that a Buddha re-discovers the Path for himself in the lifetime he becomes a Buddha. However, since becoming a Buddha is said to take aeons, and there are suttas that suggest that he met previous Buddhas in previous lifetimes, whether those meetings are an important factor is an interesting question.

E.g. see: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p140277" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Mike

[qoheleth]

Thanks, Mike.

Your explanation makes sense to me. This poster didn't say that meetings with past Buddhas were possibly an important factor in his awakening. He said awakening was impossible without studying under a Buddha.

Here's the gentleman's quote: "... the good priest states that early Buddhism (the Buddhism of the Pali texts) taught that there was no "intermediary" needed between the unenlightened human being, and Nibbana/Nirvana. That's a common misunderstanding in the West. In fact, the Pali texts show that whoever realizes Nibbana/Nirvana, realizes it by studying under a living Buddha. No one becomes a Buddha, without studying under a Buddha."

Am I correct in thinking that he is mistaken here?

[cooran]

mike said: It might be easier to comment if you could give a link to the other discussion.

Please, as Mike has requested, give a link to the other discussion.

It can be misleading to request comment on a chosen quote which is only part of an inaccessible discussion elsewhere.

with metta
Chris

[Kenshou]

Isn't there a sutta where it is said along the lines of, as long as there are monks practicing in accordance with the dhamma, the world will not be without arahants?

I can't recall where it is, but I'm sure someone here knows.

[Kare]

Thanks, Mike.

Your explanation makes sense to me. This poster didn't say that meetings with past Buddhas were possibly an important factor in his awakening. He said awakening was impossible without studying under a Buddha.

Here's the gentleman's quote: "... the good priest states that early Buddhism (the Buddhism of the Pali texts) taught that there was no "intermediary" needed between the unenlightened human being, and Nibbana/Nirvana. That's a common misunderstanding in the West. In fact, the Pali texts show that whoever realizes Nibbana/Nirvana, realizes it by studying under a living Buddha. No one becomes a Buddha, without studying under a Buddha."

Am I correct in thinking that he is mistaken here?

I think he is mistaken. Of course the Buddha figures as an important person in most of the Pali texts. That is natural, since the Pali texts mainly describe the times when the Buddha was alive. But I have never seen stated explicitly in the Pali texts that you have to study under a living Buddha in order to reach Nibbana. In the Therigatha there are many stories where the Buddha is not mentioned. One might of course assert that he still was around even if he is not mentioned in the story, but that would be nothing but an inference. In fact we see for instance how Addhakasi was prevented from seeing the Buddha. She still obtained the goal, Nibbana. Sama listened to Ananda and obtained the goal. Uttama reached the goal by listening to Patacara. There are many other examples of Theris who reached Nibbana by listening to other Theris, and where the Buddha is not mentioned in the story.

[qoheleth]

mike said: It might be easier to comment if you could give a link to the other discussion.

Please, as Mike has requested, give a link to the other discussion.

It can be misleading to request comment on a chosen quote which is only part of an inaccessible discussion elsewhere.

with metta
Chris

There really isn't any discussion surrounding this post. He posted on a dormant thread titled "The Many Forms of Buddhism", and this particular post has been added months later to the end as something of relative interest, I suppose. It seems to me to be a stand-alone post that refers to what an Orthodox priest said in a lecture regarding Buddhism. There isn't really much more to tell, I'm afraid. Here is the complete posting:

"At least one Orthodox priest has argued (starting at 9:20) that the Renaissance produced, in a very practical sense, a form of Buddhism for Europeans. His characterization of Buddhism, I would suggest, is a bit misleading (but it's an interesting thesis). For instance, the good priest states that early Buddhism (the Buddhism of the Pali texts) taught that there was no "intermediary" needed between the unenlightened human being, and Nibbana/Nirvana. That's a common misunderstanding in the West. In fact, the Pali texts show that whoever realizes Nibbana/Nirvana, realizes it by studying under a living Buddha. No one becomes a Buddha, without studying under a Buddha."

Where he says "starting at 9:20", it links to a talk about Practical Deism given by an Orthodox priest.

The quote is taken from here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/for ... 47.45.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you.

[DNS]

He is mistaken. In no place did the Buddha say one must hear directly from him to attain enlightenment.

When asked who his successor would be after passing, the Buddha said, "Let the Dhamma be your guide" Digha Nikaya 16

Sanghamitta was born after the Buddha's passing and is one of many who attained enlightenment.