Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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PeterB
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Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by PeterB »

The Buddha bequeathed us Three Jewels.
We can safetly assume that he knew what he was doing.
That all three jewels are mutually dependant.

Many of those who come to attempt to base their lives around Dhamma ( note spelling ) are one or at most two generations away from some form of protestant Christianity. At the core of which is the dictum, " By faith alone. Through Christ alone. As seen in the Bible alone."


It seems to me that we see this heritage from time to time among Theravadin Buddhists..." By reason alone. Through Gautama alone, As seen in the Suttas alone."

If there is any degree of truth in that observation, then I think it may well bear closer examination.

In particular the idea that the unaided intellect, can by the perusal and parsing of translations of the Pali Canon arrive at an understanding of the Buddhas intention.

My own view is that it cannot and never will. That the Suttas only make any sense when read from the viewpoint of a fairly advanced degree of meditative absorption.
The Sutta are a confirmation, alone they are not a means.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote: In particular the idea that the unaided intellect, can by the perusal and parsing of translations of the Pali Canon arrive at an understanding of the Buddhas intention.

My own view is that it cannot and never will. That the Suttas only make any sense when read from the viewpoint of a fairly advanced degree of meditative absorption.
The Sutta are a confirmation, alone they are not a means.
And the suttas take work to understand. They exist within and reflect a cultural matrix, they are in a particular language of which translations are an approximation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by PeterB »

True ...and they point to states which need no translation..but take a lot of effort and instruction to reach.
Sylvester
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by Sylvester »

PeterB wrote:The Sutta are a confirmation, alone they are not a means.
And I think that's the approach recommended in MN 27.
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mikenz66
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote: In particular the idea that the unaided intellect, can by the perusal and parsing of translations of the Pali Canon arrive at an understanding of the Buddhas intention.
Yes, I agree, and according to the Kalama Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
... don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, ...
:anjali:
Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by mikenz66 »

Sylvester wrote:
PeterB wrote:The Sutta are a confirmation, alone they are not a means.
And I think that's the approach recommended in MN 27.
Good point:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
...
"This, too, is called a footprint of the Tathagata, a scratch mark of the Tathagata, a tusk slash of the Tathagata, but a disciple of the noble ones would not yet come to the conclusion, 'The Blessed One is rightly self-awakened; the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One; the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples has practiced rightly.'
...
"His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

"This, too, is called a footprint of the Tathagata, a scratch mark of the Tathagata, a tusk slash of the Tathagata, and it is here that a disciple of the noble ones has come to conclusion: 'The Blessed One is rightly self-awakened; the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One; the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples has practiced rightly.'"
:anjali:
Mike
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legolas
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by legolas »

PeterB wrote:The Buddha bequeathed us Three Jewels.
We can safetly assume that he knew what he was doing.
That all three jewels are mutually dependant.

Many of those who come to attempt to base their lives around Dhamma ( note spelling ) are one or at most two generations away from some form of protestant Christianity. At the core of which is the dictum, " By faith alone. Through Christ alone. As seen in the Bible alone."


It seems to me that we see this heritage from time to time among Theravadin Buddhists..." By reason alone. Through Gautama alone, As seen in the Suttas alone."

If there is any degree of truth in that observation, then I think it may well bear closer examination.

In particular the idea that the unaided intellect, can by the perusal and parsing of translations of the Pali Canon arrive at an understanding of the Buddhas intention.

My own view is that it cannot and never will. That the Suttas only make any sense when read from the viewpoint of a fairly advanced degree of meditative absorption.
The Sutta are a confirmation, alone they are not a means.
They are a means that lead one to a greater and greater understanding. Jhana will deepen the understanding - but the means for attaining jhana are to be found in the suttas. Intellect is a necessity for starting the path along with hearing the words of the Buddha - which can only be found in the suttas. If the suttas are not the "means" then where is that means to be found - the Dhamma would be empty and lost. The Buddha is the teacher of Dhamma - the Suttas represent the Dhamma he taught - the Sangha are the preservers of that very Dhamma. If the suttas were merely confirmation then the Buddha taught an esoteric Dhamma. If not through one's own effort and discernment one cannot understand the Buddha's teaching - then how? An understanding of the Dhamma is a personal struggle - not an understanding that is gift wrapped and placed before one. One cannot take anothers understandings and claim them for their own with no investigation, it has to be an individual's own understanding and people have to have courage to question, reason, test, make effort, not believe something just out of tradition (even the suttas should be tested). I don't actually believe a high degree of jhana is a must for becoming a stream enterer.
PeterB
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by PeterB »

We need I think to define our terms. Jnanas I would suggest are not a means to deepen our intellectual understanding.

The Jhanas begin when our cognitions end.

The Suttas are the maps. Accurate and indispensible maps...but not the destination.

We need to develop as a whole...Sutta study and states of aborption are mutually supportive...
But until we experience the integration of cognition and states of absorption we will stay at the level of the discursive mind in a holding pattern...That is a matter easily verified and evident.
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by plwk »

Many of those who come to attempt to base their lives around Dhamma ( note spelling ) are one or at most two generations away from some form of protestant Christianity. At the core of which is the dictum, " By faith alone. Through Christ alone. As seen in the Bible alone."
Those were the days....sola fide/scriptura vs Apostolic Tradition...having seen and exposed to both camps...
It seems to me that we see this heritage from time to time among Theravadin Buddhists..." By reason alone. Through Gautama alone, As seen in the Suttas alone."...The Sutta are a confirmation, alone they are not a means.
So much for those who use the Abhidhamma and Commentaries as a table leg/lamp stand huh... :lol:
PeterB
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by PeterB »

I would say that my remarks are true of Sutta, Abhidhamma, and commentary.
Maps..maps of maps...and maps to show where the maps are.

Used aright we are left " silent, upon a peak in Darien".
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BlackBird
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by BlackBird »

Edit: Re-reading the OP, it seems that what I've said is completely tangential to the purpose of this thread, the only relation that stands it seems is in my contradiction of what you guys have been saying. To cut a long story short - I disagree with you.

Part of the reason I was induced to abandon the commentarial tradition was because I felt it was a scholastic attempt by puthujjanas to explain something they didn't understand. From my perspective I actually believe almost all meditation teachers in the world are puthujjanas teaching something they don't really understand. A file of blind men, to borrow a simile from the Buddha. As soon as you feel you understand something you stop trying to understand it, and thus if you don't really understand something but you think you do, you won't make any attempt to try and understand it.

As a putthujjana I have to ask myself who's advice should I follow, if indeed I want to find a way to the deathless? I'll follow the Buddha's and I'll accept his omniscience as a matter of faith. It cannot be otherwise, for it is upon the Buddha in which this whole idea of being a putthujana, or the capability of enlightenment is built. Where can I find the Buddha's message? The suttas seem to be the most likely candidate, without them Buddhism simply would not be here today. I feel they deserve more authority than they are in fact given. Having read a good deal of them, I feel confident that the message contained within is of the utmost importance.

I feel that the path to nibbana is a matter of contemplation of what is said in the suttas in relation to ones own direct experience of being. The more existentialism I read, the more I come to see the Buddha as an existentialist.

The traditional method with it's stages of insight knowledge and all that stuff (none of which the Buddha in the suttas speaks of) is a functional system laid out in a distinct and organized manner as a way to make sense and understand something that nobody understood.

That's what I believe anyway. Bound to be super-controversial and I would not be the least bit surprised if a few feelings are hurt, nor am I sure that my ramble is even relevant to the discussion here. But I'm going to say it anyway. Feels good to get it off my chest.
Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Hanzze
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by Hanzze »

The Sutta are a confirmation
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
PeterB
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by PeterB »

If anyones feelings are hurt Blackbird..then they aint doing it right.
Those are your views and all views are provisional...even mine :o
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Hanzze
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by Hanzze »

The Story of Tambadathika

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (100) of this book, with reference to Tambadathika, the executioner of thieves.

Tambadathika served the king as an executioner of thieves for fifty-five years; he had just retired from that post. One day, after preparing rice gruel at his house, he went to the river for a bath; he had intended to take the specially prepared rice gruel on his return. As he was about to take the rice gruel, Thera Sariputta, who had just arisen from sustained absorption in Concentration (jhana samapatti), stood at his door for alms-food. Seeing the thera, Tambadathika thought to himself, "Throughout my life, I have been executing thieves; now I should offer this food to the thera." So, he invited Thera Sariputta to come in and respectfully offered the rice gruel.

After the meal, the thera taught him the Dhamma, but Tambadathika could not pay attention, because he was so agitated as he recollected his past life as an executioner. When the thera knew this, he decided to ask Tambadathika tactfully whether he killed the thieves because he wished to kill them or because he was ordered to do so. Tambadathika answered that he was ordered to kill them by the king and that he had no wish to kill. Then the thera asked, "If that is so, would you be guilty or not ?" Tambadathika then concluded that, as he was not responsible for the evil deeds, he was not guilty. He, therefore, calmed down, and requested the thera to continue his exposition. As he listened to the Dhamma with proper attention, he came very close to attaining Sotapatti Magga, and reached as far as anuloma nana.* After the discourse, Tambadathika accompanied Thera Sariputta for some distance and then returned home. On his way home a cow (actually a demon in the guise of a cow) gored him to death.

When the Buddha came to the congregation of the bhikkhus in the evening, they informed him about the death of Tambadathika. When asked where Tambadathika was reborn, the Buddha told them that although Tambadathika had committed evil deeds throughout his life, because he comprehended the Dhamma after hearing it from Thera Sariputta and had already attained anuloma nana before he died, he was reborn in the Tusita deva world. The bhikkhus wondered how such an evil-doer could have such great benefit after listening to the Dhamma just once. To them the Buddha said that the length of a discourse is of no consequence, for one single word of sense can produce much benefit.

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
Verse 100: Better than a thousand words that are senseless and unconnected with the realization of Nibbana, is a single word of sense, if on hearing it one is calmed.

*anuloma nana: Vipassana Insight which causes the namarupa process of the yogi to become fully adapted for Magga Insight.
http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=100
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
Justsit
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Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas

Post by Justsit »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote: In particular the idea that the unaided intellect, can by the perusal and parsing of translations of the Pali Canon arrive at an understanding of the Buddhas intention.
Yes, I agree, and according to the Kalama Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
... don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, ...
:anjali:
Mike
Just wondering ...why didn't you highlight the word "by scripture" in red as well??
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