"Enlightened in regard to all things"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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kirk5a
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by kirk5a »

Fair enough. I just wondered whether if we interpret that sutta on "the all" as:

"the six sense bases as well as their corresponding sense objects contains everything there is"

... if it's quite right to restate it that way.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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kirk5a
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by kirk5a »

Kenshou wrote:"Consciousness without surface" is a tricky issue with a lot of interpretations. It would probably be good to look into a variety of them rather than just Thanissaro's. I'm just saying, it's one of those things.
Apparently! :smile: Not taking a position myself, I'm open to other interpretations.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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acinteyyo
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by acinteyyo »

kirk5a wrote:Fair enough. I just wondered whether if we interpret that sutta on "the all" as:

"the six sense bases as well as their corresponding sense objects contains everything there is"

... if it's quite right to restate it that way.
What I'm trying to point out is that the six sense bases as well as their corresponding sense objects contain everything there is for us to experience.
I don't have a clue what "consciousness without surface" is like or is not like. I'm not able to tell anything about it, because I'm not able to experience it by the means available, it lies beyond range...

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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kirk5a
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by kirk5a »

(This just popped into my head, sorry.)

And I get so tired when I have to explain
When you're so far away from me
See you've been in the sun and I've been in the rain
And you're so far away from me

So far away from me
So far I just can't see
So far away from me
You're so far away from me... all right.

Dire straits. :smile:
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Sherab
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by Sherab »

Here's a summary of what I see to be a problem:

If "the All" is confined only to whatever we can experience directly with our five senses and indirectly by the mind through the five senses (eg magnetic fields), then "the All" is confined to only the present experiences since the past is no longer there to be experienced and the future has not arrived as yet to be experienced. Thus, the Buddha's claim of being enlightened in regard of all things excludes the past and the future. If so, the Buddha's ability to see the past and the future is false. If the Buddha's ability to see the past and future is true, then the definition/interpretation of "the All" is called into question.

And the above have not even touch on where the consciousness without surface brought up by kirk5a resides within "the All".
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ground
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by ground »

Sherab wrote:Here's a summary of what I see to be a problem:

If "the All" is confined only to whatever we can experience directly with our five senses and indirectly by the mind through the five senses (eg magnetic fields), then "the All" is confined to only the present experiences since the past is no longer there to be experienced and the future has not arrived as yet to be experienced. Thus, the Buddha's claim of being enlightened in regard of all things excludes the past and the future. If so, the Buddha's ability to see the past and the future is false. If the Buddha's ability to see the past and future is true, then the definition/interpretation of "the All" is called into question.

And the above have not even touch on where the consciousness without surface brought up by kirk5a resides within "the All".
There are two faults:
1. Fault: Differentiating between "direct" experience of the physical senses and alleged "indirect" experience of the mind
2. Fault: Differentiating between "present things", "past things" and "future things" which presupposes real "time"

One imprisoned in "time" certainly could never be "enlightened in regard to all things".

Kind regards
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tiltbillings
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
Sherab wrote:Here's a summary of what I see to be a problem:

If "the All" is confined only to whatever we can experience directly with our five senses and indirectly by the mind through the five senses (eg magnetic fields), then "the All" is confined to only the present experiences since the past is no longer there to be experienced and the future has not arrived as yet to be experienced. Thus, the Buddha's claim of being enlightened in regard of all things excludes the past and the future. If so, the Buddha's ability to see the past and the future is false. If the Buddha's ability to see the past and future is true, then the definition/interpretation of "the All" is called into question.

And the above have not even touch on where the consciousness without surface brought up by kirk5a resides within "the All".
There are two faults:
1. Fault: Differentiating between "direct" experience of the physical senses and alleged "indirect" experience of the mind
2. Fault: Differentiating between "present things", "past things" and "future things" which presupposes real "time"

One imprisoned in "time" certainly could never be "enlightened in regard to all things".

Kind regards
Since this is a a General Theravada discussion section, please tie what is being said into actual Theravadin texts.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:Since this is a a General Theravada discussion section, please tie what is being said into actual Theravadin texts.
Sorry ... I was not even sure whether Sherab's presuppositions in the context of "Enlightened in regard to all things" do comply with the Theravadan view that is why I felt it to be okay to respond similarly.

Kind regards
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ground
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by ground »

I feel that if we restrict the meaning of "enlightened in regard to all things" to the context of cause and effect in the context of dukkha then "enlightened in regard to all things" may capture the theravadan view and Sherab presuppositions regarding this expression may be recogized as invalid and/or speculative ... which then of course also applies to my response above. Why? Because in both Sherab's approach and my response there is a bias towards "knowing things" which necessarily neglects "knowing dukkha, its causes, the end of dukkha and the way to end dukkha" (at least to some degree ... which may be significant).

Kind regards
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Sherab
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by Sherab »

TMingyur wrote:... I was not even sure whether Sherab's presuppositions in the context of "Enlightened in regard to all things" do comply with the Theravadan view that is why I felt it to be okay to respond similarly.
TMingyur wrote:I feel that if we restrict the meaning of "enlightened in regard to all things" to the context of cause and effect in the context of dukkha then "enlightened in regard to all things" may capture the theravadan view and Sherab presuppositions regarding this expression may be recogized as invalid and/or speculative ... which then of course also applies to my response above. Why? Because in both Sherab's approach and my response there is a bias towards "knowing things" which necessarily neglects "knowing dukkha, its causes, the end of dukkha and the way to end dukkha" (at least to some degree ... which may be significant).
Please re-read carefully the opening post and my other posts in this thread before you presuppose things that I don't presuppose.
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ground
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by ground »

Sherab wrote:Please re-read carefully the opening post and my other posts in this thread before you presuppose things that I don't presuppose.
You have asked:
Sherab wrote:If so what then is the meaning of "enlightened in regard to all things". If not, how should the verse be interpreted?
But the debaters got carried away by ideas that cannot necessarily be inferred from what the Buddha taught about "the All".

Faulty presuppositions are already in responses given by "theravadins" to your question. Therefore your bias became established.

Kind regards
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Sherab
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by Sherab »

TMingyur wrote:
Sherab wrote:Please re-read carefully the opening post and my other posts in this thread before you presuppose things that I don't presuppose.
You have asked:
Sherab wrote:If so what then is the meaning of "enlightened in regard to all things". If not, how should the verse be interpreted?
But the debaters got carried away by ideas that cannot necessarily be inferred from what the Buddha taught about "the All".

Faulty presuppositions are already in responses given by "theravadins" to your question. Therefore your bias became established.

Kind regards
You are projecting your own thoughts as my thinking.

Anyway, my participation on this forum is to get the Theravadin's take on things said in the Pali canon and I would like to get back on topic.
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ground
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by ground »

Sherab wrote:... what then is the meaning of "enlightened in regard to all things".
The meaning is that the Buddha has attained enlightenment in regard to dukkha, its causes, the cessation of dukkha and the way leading to this cessation. This is called "enlightened in regard to all things".

This enlightenment is based on knowing all that there is (there is nothing beyond this "all" that is not mere speculation):
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
And there is no mention of past, present and future at all!

This was introduced by yourself:
Sherab wrote:If yes, do you confine "the All" to the present or do you include "the All" that has passed and "the All" that is to come?
And that shows your presuppositions.


Kind regards
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ground
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by ground »

Of course one may ask:
If "the All" is all then why did the Buddha teach more than that?

The answer is: Because he was "enlightened in regard to all things" which includes the capacities of his disciples, their specifically colored dukkha, their specifically colored causes and what is required for them to end it (i.e. the noble 8fold path).


Kind regards
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Sherab
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by Sherab »

TMingyur,

Help me out please. Stop participating in this thread. I am really looking for responses from people who are much more familiar with the Pali canon than you.

Thank you.
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