The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:47 pm

Namu Butsu wrote:Namaste,

CLW_UK i already did. I posted two links that explain the concept from experts. I wanted someone who could take the time to read them and realize the hindu view and then perhaps give me a buddhist response to this. I already read the refutations to christians, jews, and muslims. I am fine with that it does refute the hell out of what they believe in, but the hindu concept is missing. Look at my post again and check out the links.

with metta
-juan
:buddha2:


Would you be kind enough to outline what you see as the major (and minor) difference between the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God on one side and the Hindu Shavite god on the other, why criticism of one does not cover the other. If you are claiming they are different, it is up to you to delineate these differences as you understand them.If you make the claim, it is your responsibility to clarify what the claim is and how you understand it, which is what is required for a good, reasonable dialogue.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Namu Butsu » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:57 pm

Yes sir :buddha1: @ CLW_UK

TILT most certainly.

The Abrahamic concepts is there is a God individual being who "created" the universe and rules over from a throne in heaven (some Islamic concepts place God Above the 7 heavens on a throne that is over those heavens). The islamic deity isnt known in terms of anthropomorphically. Though the christian and jewish may be. But the Muslims still accept an Individual Deity somewhere out there that with magical powers produced the universe.

In Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) in particular the Shaivite path God is Immanent and transcendent. God is dual and non dual, within us and outside of us. There is only one reality (monism). That means that all this around us the maya is illusion because the onlything that exist is God. We are part of that God we just dont realize it and thus is why we suffer. Siva is looked at as Absolute reality, Pure Consciousness, and Primal soul. From dancing with Siva the book it states that Siva is unmanifests, unchanging and transcendent, the Self God, Timeless, formless and spaceless. As pure consciousness, Siva is the manifest primal substance, pure love and light flowing through all form, existing everywhere in time and space as infinite intelligence and power. As Primal Soul, Siva is the five-fold manifestation: brahma, the creator; vishnu the preserver; Rudra the destroyer; Mahesvara the Veiling Lord, and Sadasiva the revealer.

Siva's unamnifest reality is something that must be realizd. It does not exist yet exist. It is basically Formelessness, unborn, indestructable, beyond time and space, without qualities, that we are apart of and is our nature.
Last edited by Namu Butsu on Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby clw_uk » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:57 pm

Taken from this ling

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resourc ... la-11.html


There is a divine purpose even in the existence of suffering in the world.


Where is this divine purpose?


It is a natural part of human life and the impetus for much spiritual growth for the soul


Where is the soul? What does the soul do?


Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. SN III 46


Is soul feeling? perception? consciousness? mental volition? form?



"That which appears as cold or as hot, fresh or spoiled, good fortune and bad, love and hate, effort and laziness, the exalted and the depraved, the rich and the poor, the well-founded and the ill-founded, all this is God Himself; none other than Him can we know." Aum Namah Sivaya.


So a man is a murder because of God

Anguttara Nikaya 3.61: “Again, monks, I [the Buddha] approached those ascetic and brahmins and said to them: ‘Is it true, as they say, that you venerable ones teach and hold the view that whatever a person experiences…all that is caused by God’s creation?’ When they affirmed it, I said to them: ‘If that is so, venerable sirs, then it is due to God’s creation that people kill, steal ...[and otherwise act badly]. But those who have recourse to God’s creation as the decisive factor will lack the impulse and the effort doing this or not doing that. Since for them, really and truly, no (motive) obtains that this or that ought to be done or not be done….”’

Sin is the intentional transgression of divine law. There is no inherent or "original" sin. Neither is there mortal sin by which the soul is forever lost. Through sadhana, worship and austerities, sins can be atoned for. Aum.



There is no "divine law" in Buddhism, unwholesome kamma is from intentional action motivated by greed hatred or delusion. There is no "attonement from sin" via prayer and worship either

"Suppose a man were to throw a large boulder into a deep lake of water, and a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'Rise up, O boulder! Come floating up, O boulder! Come float to the shore, O boulder!' What do you think: would that boulder — because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people — rise up, come floating up, or come float to the shore?"

"No, lord."

"So it is with any man who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell.




SLOKA 53

There is no eternal hell, nor is there a Satan. However, there are hellish states of mind and woeful births for those who think and act wrongfully--temporary tormenting conditions that lift the fiery forces within. Aum.


This is in line with buddhism


The superconscious mind, the mind of our soul, knows and inspires good conduct, out of which comes a refined, sustainable culture.


Soul? Super consciousness?

Wrongdoing and vice lead us away from God, deep into the darkness of doubt, despair and self-condemnation


In Buddhism there is no moving towards God there is practicing for the cessation of Dukkha


SLOKA 55

God is perfect goodness, love and truth. He is not wrathful or vengeful. He does not condemn or punish wrongdoers. Jealousy, vengefulness and vanity are qualities of man's instinctive nature, not of God. Aum Namah Sivaya.


If he is perfect goodness why does he allow hurt?



Generally speaking God in Buddhism is not found because of the problem of evil and also because it puts forward some kind of permanent, everlasting entity/being/principle


I dont really see much difference between the problems of Abrahamic Theism and Hindu Theism/Deism

metta
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Namu Butsu » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:06 pm

I modified post 11
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/vegi.html (Meat eating and vegetarianism)
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby clw_uk » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:06 pm

There is a good debate here about God or no God that i thought was relevant to the discussion





Last edited by clw_uk on Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Namu Butsu » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:08 pm

I dont think i will learn anything. I am not concerned about evil and good but about the concept of God in Hinduism and the view of buddhism. I am seeking a refutation SPECIFICALLY AGAINST THE HINDU THEOLOGY.. I do not think ill find it here but thats okay ill search elsewhere

with metta
-juan
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby clw_uk » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:17 pm

Namu Butsu wrote:I dont think i will learn anything. I am not concerned about evil and good but about the concept of God in Hinduism and the view of buddhism. I am seeking a refutation SPECIFICALLY AGAINST THE HINDU THEOLOGY.. I do not think ill find it here but thats okay ill search elsewhere

with metta
-juan




Its a concept thats not needed, it promoted ideas of eternalism and doesnt equate with reality


I dont really have much else to say unless i repeat myself


If you feel your not getting enough information then expand on your point, tell us what your conception of God is
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Namu Butsu » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:26 pm

I just did yet again above. But nevermind im not getting answers. Thank you for your time.
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/vegi.html (Meat eating and vegetarianism)
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:29 pm

Namu Butsu wrote:I just did yet again above. But nevermind im not getting answers. Thank you for your time.


Does Shiva change?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby clw_uk » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:29 pm

Namu Butsu wrote:I just did yet again above. But nevermind im not getting answers. Thank you for your time.



Sorry i didnt see that post
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:30 pm

Namu Butsu wrote:I just did yet again above. But nevermind im not getting answers. Thank you for your time.


Give us a little more time here. (And thanks for the above explanation.)
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:28 am

This whole thread reminds me of a letter of Ñánavìra Thera to Mr. Samaratunga on 20. August 1963
European thought cannot be understood until it is realized that every European is asking himself, consciously or unconsciously, whether God exists. Everything hinges on the answer to this question; for the problem of good and evil, and of personal survival of death ('the immortality of the soul'), are one with the problem of God's existence. It is this fact that makes the Buddha's Teaching incomprehensible to the European - 'How' he asks 'can there be Ethics ans Survival of Death if ther is no omnipotent God?' The European will passionately affirm God or passionately deny God, but he cannot ignore God. Sir Francis Younghusband, commenting on the fact that there is hadly any reference to an omnipotent God (Issaranimmána, 'Creator God') in the Suttas, attributes the omission to the supposed fact that the Buddha had far too much reverence for God ever to presume to speak of him. What other explanation could there be? The idea of a moral but Godless universe is quite foreign to European thought.

and imho not only to european thought...

best wishes
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby appicchato » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:51 pm

acinteyyo wrote:...will passionately...


That's (part of) the problem for many/most (but not limited to) Caucasians...everyone's (just) got to be 'passionate' about something...the Buddha (in complete contrast) advised dispassion...all the way...
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:36 pm

mikenz66 wrote:The Dalai Lama is often quoted as saying that if someone has a spiritual path that they like, then he does not want to encourage them to change to Buddhism. But as far as I can see he doesn't say that those path are the same.

Metta
Mike


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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:59 pm

It appears that Namu Butsu is poking his head in here, interested in Buddhist ideas.

It is not easy to let go of the God idea. It took me a while. For example when I was just a kid my parents died. I immediately replaced them with God, my parent-in-space. Just like letting go of them (the parents), letting go of God was a rough road. Eventually, as the Dalai Lama says, if you're going to be a Buddhist you do need to make a choice about this. And the Dalai Lama emphasizes that choosing your religion is a serious thing. But letting go of the God idea is not easy or instant for some.

I think that if someone is peeking in, wondering about Buddhism, it would be generous to show a bit of gentleness.

As long as we're so forthcoming with opinions in this thread, there's mine ;)

Best,
Drolma
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby christopher::: » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:01 pm

Hi Drolma. Sorry to hear that, about the loss of your parents at such a young age. I'm glad that you have found refuge, guidance and support with the 3 jewels.

acinteyyo wrote:This whole thread reminds me of a letter of Ñánavìra Thera to Mr. Samaratunga on 20. August 1963

European thought cannot be understood until it is realized that every European is asking himself, consciously or unconsciously, whether God exists. Everything hinges on the answer to this question; for the problem of good and evil, and of personal survival of death ('the immortality of the soul'), are one with the problem of God's existence. It is this fact that makes the Buddha's Teaching incomprehensible to the European - 'How' he asks 'can there be Ethics ans Survival of Death if ther is no omnipotent God?' The European will passionately affirm God or passionately deny God, but he cannot ignore God. Sir Francis Younghusband, commenting on the fact that there is hadly any reference to an omnipotent God (Issaranimmána, 'Creator God') in the Suttas, attributes the omission to the supposed fact that the Buddha had far too much reverence for God ever to presume to speak of him. What other explanation could there be? The idea of a moral but Godless universe is quite foreign to European thought.


and imho not only to european thought...

best wishes


Good point, acinteyyo. People need to believe there is a meaningfulness and order to life, i think, and a well-lit path for us to follow. Otherwise all the chaos and dukkha can overwhelm one.. Buddhists have the 3 jewels. NonBuddhists do not. For hundreds of millions a belief in God and/or a Higher Cosmic Order plays an essential role...

:namaste:
Last edited by christopher::: on Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Namu Butsu » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:02 pm

Ngawang Drolma wrote:It appears that Namu Butsu is poking his head in here, interested in Buddhist ideas.

It is not easy to let go of the God idea. It took me a while. For example when I was just a kid my parents died. I immediately replaced them with God, my parent-in-space. Just like letting go of them (the parents), letting go of God was a rough road. Eventually, as the Dalai Lama says, if you're going to be a Buddhist you do need to make a choice about this. And the Dalai Lama emphasizes that choosing your religion is a serious thing. But letting go of the God idea is not easy or instant for some.

I think that if someone is peeking in, wondering about Buddhism, it would be generous to show a bit of gentleness.

As long as we're so forthcoming with opinions in this thread, there's mine ;)

Best,
Drolma


Namaste Drolma,

Thank you for the response and personal story. It was very tough for me to originally put away my concepts of God after I gave up my religious dogma before. I cannot imagine how it would be so young and having your parents die. Ofcourse we due to our fears and sorrows need to cling to some imaginary deity. I bet it was even worse for you to let go of God.

Recently I had let go of God, this ofcourse shocked my wife ofcourse because we had both converted to islam. However, we soon left the concept though left the door open to possibly there is a God but were unsure. I ofcourse was exploring going to different buddhist temples and centers and meditating. The concept had left me, but then I learned about the Hindu view of God and it made me ponder perhaps there way of thinking is a bit better. It certainly is better than abrahamic faiths. However, I still do not believe in a God though sometimes I may imagine so, but I have many doubts about it. Though learning about the Hindu concepts makes me ponder the question more deeply. The reason being as suggested in my above posts is that the God of hinduism is way different from western religions in which God is some individual being far away from us who "Created" the universe. Instead hinduism is about an immanent pulsating energy that Manifested the creation with the big bang theory etc... The hindu concept of God can best described by the film called (What the Bleep Do we Know) if you have watched it and got to the section where the scientist are speaking about God etc... then that is what I am pondering. When they speak of that essence which they cannot describe, then this is my delimma. Either way I am continuing to meditate and I read my buddhist library and plus hindu books I have. I am currently restudying "The Wise Heart" By Jack Kornfield and doing the practices in it. So I will keep an open mind. My desires make me want to be buddhist, but I know if I jump in without pondering the Eastern concept of God (in Hinduism) then I will not be doing the subject any justice.
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:06 pm

western religions in which God is some individual being far away from us who "Created" the universe.


That is a very unsophisticated presentation of the Christian god, just as one can find equally unsophisticated presentation of the Hindu god(s).

The reason being as suggested in my above posts is that the God of hinduism is way different from western religions in which God is some individual being far away from us who "Created" the universe. Instead hinduism is about an immanent pulsating energy that Manifested the creation with the big bang theory etc...

But what does such a god notion really explain? And if such a god existed, what does its creation/manifestation/pulsating immanent emanation tell us about it really is?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Namu Butsu » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:25 pm

It explains the unborn, indestructable, beyond time and space, our true nature that we are not separate from.
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/vegi.html (Meat eating and vegetarianism)
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:44 pm

Namu Butsu wrote:It explains the unborn, indestructable, beyond time and space, our true nature that we are not separate from.


That really does not answer the question. You have given us a string of words, but what do they mean, what do they have to do with day-to-day life, what do they have to do with why we suffer? And how do you know there is an unborn whatever other than wishful thinking?

The question: But what does such a god notion really explain? And if such a god existed, what does its creation/manifestation/pulsating immanent emanation tell us about it really is? We look at the creation/manifestation/pulsating immanent emanation of the supposed god as it plays itself out among human beings on this planet in this solar system in this galaxy. We have a universe that function via impersonal principles. We could easily be wiped out in short order by the play of these principles, not to mention the increasing population and the subsequent increasing in human misery, so what does this tell us about the supposed creation/manifestation/pulsating immanent emanation god, be it Hindu or anyone else's? In face of death and disease and suffering and raging uncertainty, we want something that will make it all better, be a loving god or it is just an illusion, you are part of the real reality or whatever.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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