The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

[tiltbillings]

Namaste,

CLW_UK i already did. I posted two links that explain the concept from experts. I wanted someone who could take the time to read them and realize the hindu view and then perhaps give me a buddhist response to this. I already read the refutations to christians, jews, and muslims. I am fine with that it does refute the hell out of what they believe in, but the hindu concept is missing. Look at my post again and check out the links.

with metta
-juan

Would you be kind enough to outline what you see as the major (and minor) difference between the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God on one side and the Hindu Shavite god on the other, why criticism of one does not cover the other. If you are claiming they are different, it is up to you to delineate these differences as you understand them.If you make the claim, it is your responsibility to clarify what the claim is and how you understand it, which is what is required for a good, reasonable dialogue.

[Namu Butsu]

Yes sir @ CLW_UK

TILT most certainly.

The Abrahamic concepts is there is a God individual being who "created" the universe and rules over from a throne in heaven (some Islamic concepts place God Above the 7 heavens on a throne that is over those heavens). The islamic deity isnt known in terms of anthropomorphically. Though the christian and jewish may be. But the Muslims still accept an Individual Deity somewhere out there that with magical powers produced the universe.

In Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) in particular the Shaivite path God is Immanent and transcendent. God is dual and non dual, within us and outside of us. There is only one reality (monism). That means that all this around us the maya is illusion because the onlything that exist is God. We are part of that God we just dont realize it and thus is why we suffer. Siva is looked at as Absolute reality, Pure Consciousness, and Primal soul. From dancing with Siva the book it states that Siva is unmanifests, unchanging and transcendent, the Self God, Timeless, formless and spaceless. As pure consciousness, Siva is the manifest primal substance, pure love and light flowing through all form, existing everywhere in time and space as infinite intelligence and power. As Primal Soul, Siva is the five-fold manifestation: brahma, the creator; vishnu the preserver; Rudra the destroyer; Mahesvara the Veiling Lord, and Sadasiva the revealer.

Siva's unamnifest reality is something that must be realizd. It does not exist yet exist. It is basically Formelessness, unborn, indestructable, beyond time and space, without qualities, that we are apart of and is our nature.

[Ceisiwr]

Taken from this ling

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resourc ... la-11.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a divine purpose even in the existence of suffering in the world.

Where is this divine purpose?

It is a natural part of human life and the impetus for much spiritual growth for the soul

Where is the soul? What does the soul do?

Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. SN III 46

Is soul feeling? perception? consciousness? mental volition? form?

"That which appears as cold or as hot, fresh or spoiled, good fortune and bad, love and hate, effort and laziness, the exalted and the depraved, the rich and the poor, the well-founded and the ill-founded, all this is God Himself; none other than Him can we know." Aum Namah Sivaya.

So a man is a murder because of God

Anguttara Nikaya 3.61: “Again, monks, I [the Buddha] approached those ascetic and brahmins and said to them: ‘Is it true, as they say, that you venerable ones teach and hold the view that whatever a person experiences…all that is caused by God’s creation?’ When they affirmed it, I said to them: ‘If that is so, venerable sirs, then it is due to God’s creation that people kill, steal ...[and otherwise act badly]. But those who have recourse to God’s creation as the decisive factor will lack the impulse and the effort doing this or not doing that. Since for them, really and truly, no (motive) obtains that this or that ought to be done or not be done….”’

Sin is the intentional transgression of divine law. There is no inherent or "original" sin. Neither is there mortal sin by which the soul is forever lost. Through sadhana, worship and austerities, sins can be atoned for. Aum.

There is no "divine law" in Buddhism, unwholesome kamma is from intentional action motivated by greed hatred or delusion. There is no "attonement from sin" via prayer and worship either

"Suppose a man were to throw a large boulder into a deep lake of water, and a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'Rise up, O boulder! Come floating up, O boulder! Come float to the shore, O boulder!' What do you think: would that boulder — because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people — rise up, come floating up, or come float to the shore?"

"No, lord."

"So it is with any man who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell.

SLOKA 53

There is no eternal hell, nor is there a Satan. However, there are hellish states of mind and woeful births for those who think and act wrongfully--temporary tormenting conditions that lift the fiery forces within. Aum.

This is in line with buddhism

The superconscious mind, the mind of our soul, knows and inspires good conduct, out of which comes a refined, sustainable culture.

Soul? Super consciousness?

Wrongdoing and vice lead us away from God, deep into the darkness of doubt, despair and self-condemnation

In Buddhism there is no moving towards God there is practicing for the cessation of Dukkha

SLOKA 55

God is perfect goodness, love and truth. He is not wrathful or vengeful. He does not condemn or punish wrongdoers. Jealousy, vengefulness and vanity are qualities of man's instinctive nature, not of God. Aum Namah Sivaya.

If he is perfect goodness why does he allow hurt?



Generally speaking God in Buddhism is not found because of the problem of evil and also because it puts forward some kind of permanent, everlasting entity/being/principle


I dont really see much difference between the problems of Abrahamic Theism and Hindu Theism/Deism

metta

[Namu Butsu]

I modified post 11

[Ceisiwr]

There is a good debate here about God or no God that i thought was relevant to the discussion

phpBB .

[Namu Butsu]

I dont think i will learn anything. I am not concerned about evil and good but about the concept of God in Hinduism and the view of buddhism. I am seeking a refutation SPECIFICALLY AGAINST THE HINDU THEOLOGY.. I do not think ill find it here but thats okay ill search elsewhere

with metta
-juan

[Ceisiwr]

I dont think i will learn anything. I am not concerned about evil and good but about the concept of God in Hinduism and the view of buddhism. I am seeking a refutation SPECIFICALLY AGAINST THE HINDU THEOLOGY.. I do not think ill find it here but thats okay ill search elsewhere

with metta
-juan

Its a concept thats not needed, it promoted ideas of eternalism and doesnt equate with reality


I dont really have much else to say unless i repeat myself


If you feel your not getting enough information then expand on your point, tell us what your conception of God is

[Namu Butsu]

I just did yet again above. But nevermind im not getting answers. Thank you for your time.

[tiltbillings]

I just did yet again above. But nevermind im not getting answers. Thank you for your time.

Does Shiva change?

[Ceisiwr]

I just did yet again above. But nevermind im not getting answers. Thank you for your time.

Sorry i didnt see that post

[tiltbillings]

I just did yet again above. But nevermind im not getting answers. Thank you for your time.

Give us a little more time here. (And thanks for the above explanation.)

[acinteyyo]

This whole thread reminds me of a letter of Ñánavìra Thera to Mr. Samaratunga on 20. August 1963

European thought cannot be understood until it is realized that every European is asking himself, consciously or unconsciously, whether God exists. Everything hinges on the answer to this question; for the problem of good and evil, and of personal survival of death ('the immortality of the soul'), are one with the problem of God's existence. It is this fact that makes the Buddha's Teaching incomprehensible to the European - 'How' he asks 'can there be Ethics ans Survival of Death if ther is no omnipotent God?' The European will passionately affirm God or passionately deny God, but he cannot ignore God. Sir Francis Younghusband, commenting on the fact that there is hadly any reference to an omnipotent God (Issaranimmána, 'Creator God') in the Suttas, attributes the omission to the supposed fact that the Buddha had far too much reverence for God ever to presume to speak of him. What other explanation could there be? The idea of a moral but Godless universe is quite foreign to European thought.

and imho not only to european thought...

best wishes

[appicchato]

...will passionately...

That's (part of) the problem for many/most (but not limited to) Caucasians...everyone's (just) got to be 'passionate' about something...the Buddha (in complete contrast) advised dispassion...all the way...

[Ngawang Drolma.]

The Dalai Lama is often quoted as saying that if someone has a spiritual path that they like, then he does not want to encourage them to change to Buddhism. But as far as I can see he doesn't say that those path are the same.

Metta
Mike

[Ngawang Drolma.]

It appears that Namu Butsu is poking his head in here, interested in Buddhist ideas.

It is not easy to let go of the God idea. It took me a while. For example when I was just a kid my parents died. I immediately replaced them with God, my parent-in-space. Just like letting go of them (the parents), letting go of God was a rough road. Eventually, as the Dalai Lama says, if you're going to be a Buddhist you do need to make a choice about this. And the Dalai Lama emphasizes that choosing your religion is a serious thing. But letting go of the God idea is not easy or instant for some.

I think that if someone is peeking in, wondering about Buddhism, it would be generous to show a bit of gentleness.

As long as we're so forthcoming with opinions in this thread, there's mine

Best,
Drolma