The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
PeterB
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by PeterB »

Thanks Tilt. What is clear is that the Buddha is saying that there is no Refuge in a objectified " god", out there.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:Thanks Tilt. What is clear is that the Buddha is saying that there is no Refuge in a objectified " god", out there.
That is how I would read it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by PeterB »

Interestingly its what Lex Hixon says is true of the Sufis too, but this is not the place for that discussion.
kannada
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by kannada »

Heya Christopher:::

Good to read ya! Did you feel the earthquake?
christopher::: wrote:
kannada wrote:Just use the legal argument re 'God':

"The onus of proof is on the asserter, not the denier"
Matters of faith are often impossible to prove, in a legal way...
But we mortals sure do love to believe...
I used the 'legal system' analogy because it is a sound logical system. Those who assert must prove - others rest content to deny.

This not only goes for for those 'Giddig' (filled with God - as in giddy (olde Welsh)) who proselytize his presence under their various brand names, but for anyone who cares to raise an assertion. Buddhists should be wary when poking fun at God-believers. How much of the Buddha's teachings can they guarantee came directly from Buddha? Is there any certainty that what a Buddhist practices is actually the Dharma Teachings of their Master, or admixtures from a variety of sources over thousands of years?

I agree with you. Ultimately all religious practitioners of whatever creed are believers, in one form or another...

Take care

k
Just a view - nothing more...
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christopher:::
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by christopher::: »

Yeah. Which is in part the beauty of the Buddha's dharma. At the core are these teachings about how our own minds work. We all seem to agree that these gems can be put into practice, verified and tested. They work! As do the brahma viharas... call them whatever we like.

As for the metaphysics of each tradition::: God saying this, creating the Universe, being like this, Buddha talking to God, Moses or Jesus talking to God, it does all sound rather fantastical and mythic. Teachings to be careful about approaching literally, imo.

What's most important (in my life) are the recipes and essential moral codes these wise men left for living our lives in a more peaceful, loving, compassionate, joyful, wise and enlightened way.

Beliefs differ. The core teachings of most of the world's religions are for us here, in this world. Still, for many people the metaphysics and the real world teachings come as one package. Thus the importance of being respectful.

Just my pov.

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Namu Butsu
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Namu Butsu »

Namaste,

I followed the debate on the other forum and it is quite hard to understand. Both have good points. But I think a lot of people misunderstand hinduism. It is as mentioned earlier that God is looked at as Monism ONE Complete Reality and Panantheism that God is in all things and transcendent above all things. We are Emanations from Lord Siva. There is no separation. Siva in form of Siva Shakti emanated the universe. Now to understand Siva and Sakti is not to view them as the Man in the picture above and the Female form. It is symbolic of Siva and Sakti as feminime power. Anyways check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH6KNeI7u2g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; it describes Siva-Sakti and how it goes along with quantum physics.

Also Siva in form of Lord Nataraja (the Cosmic Dance) is also along the lines of quantum physics see here http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resourc ... dance.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So we cannot get confused with the Islamic, christian, and jewish "concept" of God and the Hindu version. It is not simply that a Creator created things, but instead they use the term God or Siva to describe the coming of this universe. I dont know if its true but it seems to go along with quantum physics just like dependent origination. God be it Siva to Shaivites or Vishnu to Vaishnavas is not a THING or some individual being, but instead God is immanent and is the pulsating cosmic energy. Similar to the Dao of the Daoist.

I am still confused at what path I am going to take. But I like to see from all sides before deciding. I have a deep affection for the Shaivite Hindu path, but I also am attached to Buddha. Some things though are unanswered for me in buddhism. I find it difficult to know how Karma, rebirth, and many worlds including spiritual worlds exist without a Deity that emanated it. But I have an open mind. Its just when I look around or as I am studying Traditional Chinese Medicine in school I learn about how everything in the body and the environment works together and things are just perfectly woven together, how can there be no deity? But I know all this is rational understanding and rational understanding doesnt prove anything. But it makes me wonder. :reading:
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

We are Emanations from Lord Siva.


What could that possibly mean? So, all the pain, suffering that goes along with being human is also Shiva's doing. But maybe you might actually want to learn about Buddhism rather than the Hindu reinterpretation of Buddhism which has not a thing to do with what the Buddha actually taught.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Namu Butsu
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Namu Butsu »

Namaste,

Well according to shaivite hindus
"The Agamas explain, "That which appears as cold or as hot, fresh or spoiled, good fortune and bad, love and hate, effort and laziness, the exalted and the depraved, the rich and the poor, the well-founded and the ill-founded, all this is God Himself; none other than Him can we know." Aum Namah Sivaya."

Read more here http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resourc ... la-11.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would love for someone to address the view though I posted above, because I want to see the Buddhist point of view it will be helpful in my decision making. :coffee:
with metta

:buddha1:
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
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christopher:::
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:
We are Emanations from Lord Siva.


What could that possibly mean? So, all the pain, suffering that goes along with being human is also Shiva's doing...
I think anthropomorphism may be the issue here that keeps popping up. The traditional Christian, Hindu and Hebrew presentations of God are all highly anthropomorphic. God is presented as a human-like being who created things from afar and watches over his creations. This mythic concept exists in Buddhism as well, it seems, where Buddha has actual discussions with God. And when you talk about Shiva "doing" this or God being "responsible" for that, you are utilizing a human-like anthropomorphic conception.

Thing is, there also exists in most religions less anthropomorphic mystical teachings and paths, where God is conceptualized more as a mystery, a creative power without a single conscious awareness or center. This is God as more like the Tao, like a Mysterious Cosmic Presence or Spirit that manifests and expresses as all things. This conception differs from the traditional one, its a very different concept, a less human-like meme.

Its true, as long as we conceptualize God as presented in ancient texts, in anthropomorphic terms, we are dealing with a metaphor which doesn't match with what science presents. This is where literal religious conceptions have limitations.

But there are schools of thought in science, such as the Deep Ecology movement, and systems science, that are now presenting a picture of the Universe that fits nicely with these less anthropomorphic conceptions, with the more mystical teachings. I think this fits with what Namu Butsu is saying. And its the point i have been trying to make in the evolution/creative design discussion.

A related article:

BEYOND ANTHROPOCENTRISM

by John Seed; from THINKING LIKE A MOUNTAIN - TOWARDS A COUNCIL OF ALL BEINGS by John Seed, Joanna Macy, Arne Naess & Pat Fleming, New Society Publishers, Philadelphia, 1988
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

Thing is, there also exists in most religions less anthropomorphic mystical teachings and paths, where God is conceptualized more as a mystery, a creative power without a single conscious awareness or center. This is God as more like the Tao, like a Mysterious Cosmic Presence or Spirit that manifests and expresses as all things. This conception differs from the traditional one, its a very different concept, a less human-like meme.
And it still explains nothing,
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ceisiwr »

We are Emanations from Lord Siva.

Image


The poor being above with smallpox says it all really when somone claims there is a God, even more so when they say
We are Emanations from Lord Siva
Well according to shaivite hindus
"The Agamas explain, "That which appears as cold or as hot, fresh or spoiled, good fortune and bad, love and hate, effort and laziness, the exalted and the depraved, the rich and the poor, the well-founded and the ill-founded, all this is God Himself; none other than Him can we know." Aum Namah Sivaya."
In which case God was Hitler and killed millions, in which case he is evil
This mythic concept exists in Buddhism as well, it seems, where Buddha has actual discussions with God
Im not aware of Buddha doing this, do you have a reference? Ive read that he talked to beings who thought they were the God but, as buddha pointed out, they were mistaken


Thing is, there also exists in most religions less anthropomorphic mystical teachings and paths, where God is conceptualized more as a mystery, a creative power without a single conscious awareness or center. This is God as more like the Tao, like a Mysterious Cosmic Presence or Spirit that manifests and expresses as all things. This conception differs from the traditional one, its a very different concept, a less human-like meme.
Im not wanting to sound harsh but this just seems to be a lot of talk about nothing. It doesnt really explain or say anything


Why assume such things?


As Pierre-Simon marquis de Laplace said to Napoleon when asked why God didnt feature in his work
I had no need of that hypothesis.
metta
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:

In which case God was Hitler and killed millions, in which case he is evil
This mythic concept exists in Buddhism as well, it seems, where Buddha has actual discussions with God
Im not aware of Buddha doing this, do you have a reference? Ive read that he talked to beings who thought they were the God but, as buddha pointed out, they were mistaken
In the 50th discourse of the Middle Length Sayings:

"God truthfully answers [the questions of the Buddha] in succession: 'Good sir, those views I previously held are not mine; I see the radiance the world of God as passing; how could I say that I am permanent and eternal?'"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ben »

Hi Christopher
christopher::: wrote:I think anthropomorphism may be the issue here that keeps popping up. The traditional Christian, Hindu and Hebrew presentations of God are all highly... ...by John Seed; from THINKING LIKE A MOUNTAIN - TOWARDS A COUNCIL OF ALL BEINGS by John Seed, Joanna Macy, Arne Naess & Pat Fleming, New Society Publishers, Philadelphia, 1988
Thanks for posting the above. I think its very interesting but I have a problem with understanding how it actually relates to the Theravada. I mean no disrespect to you, but I am wondering whether you are trying to recast the Buddha's teaching to be in line with the view that you are sharing. To help me understand better, do you have any references from the Pali Tipitaka which validates your notion?
Thanks

Ben
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
We are Emanations from Lord Siva.


What could that possibly mean? So, all the pain, suffering that goes along with being human is also Shiva's doing...
I think anthropomorphism may be the issue here that keeps popping up.
The question of the utility of a god notion, whether one anthropomorphizes it or assumes it to be some vague. mysterious creative power, still obtains. It really explains nothing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Namu Butsu »

Namaste,

Could someone please comment on the post I said and perhaps help me understand the buddhist perspective. The reason why Is I am used to hearing buddhist response to the christian and islamic view of God (which the buddhist refute very nicely), but I never get a clear answer on refutations to the Hindu concept since the hindu concept is way different then the abrahamic perspective. I would love to hear from ben. Clw_UK i rather not hear from you, because you wanted to rationalize it, I was not seeking a debate I was simply wanting someone to respond. I made a post similar on E-sangha but those that responded only responded with a refutation to the christian concept of God. I want to hear from a buddhist who truely knows the buddhist and also Hindu perspective so that they can enlighten me. In particular I just want a response on the Buddhist perspective of the Hindu view that Siva emanates the universe. As Siva-Sakti seems to be allignment with quantum physics. I know dependent origination also goes along with it and is part of it. I gave a link because I wanted someone to read and understand before answering. I am just seeking truth that is all. I dont want to be part of the other debate going on in the thread.. I simply want a buddhist perspective.

with metta
-juan
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
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