Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

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jackson
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Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by jackson »

Hi everyone,
I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on thought substitution vs. simply observing feeling in the body. I've practiced substitution for a while, but recently read Ajahn Munindo's excellent book "Unexpected Freedom", where the recurring theme seemed to be just letting emotions be as they are and dwelling in the feeling in the body. It's interesting observing anger but I'm somewhat unsure when I should just let it be or instead bring up the feeling of metta. Also I'm wondering about the origin of just observing dangerous emotions like anger without acting upon them, was this taught by the Buddha?
I look forward to your replies, :smile:
Jackson
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah
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bodom
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by bodom »

It's interesting observing anger but I'm somewhat unsure when I should just let it be or instead bring up the feeling of metta.


Here are the Buddha's words:
What, now, is the effort to Overcome? There the disciple rouses his will to overcome the evil, unwholesome things that have already arisen; and he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives. He does not retain any thought of sensual lust, ill-will or grief, or any other evil and unwholesome states that may have arisen; he abandons them, dispels them, destroys them. causes them to disappear.

Also I'm wondering about the origin of just observing dangerous emotions like anger without acting upon them, was this taught by the Buddha?


Many will say the Satipatthana sutta but even there the Buddha says...
And he discerns how there is the abandoning of ill will once it has arisen...


This indicates the need for effort and not just passive observance.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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tiltbillings
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by tiltbillings »

bodom wrote:
And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen...


This indicates the need for effort and not just passive observance.
Well, watching sensual desire, just watching without judgment, can be enough, seeing its rise and its fall. What more does one need to do?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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bodom
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by bodom »

tiltbillings wrote:
bodom wrote:This indicates the need for effort and not just passive observance.
Well, watching sensual desire, just watching without judgment, can be enough, seeing its rise and its fall. What more does one need to do?
True. However there are times when "watching" is not enough.
If, whilst regarding a certain object, there arise in the disciple, on account of it, evil and unwholesome thoughts connected with greed, hatred and delusion, then the disciple (1) should, by means of this object, gain another and wholesome object. (2) Or, he should reflect on the misery of these thoughts; `Unwholesome, truly, are these thoughts! Blamable are these thoughts! Of painful result are these thoughts!' (3) Or he should pay no attention to these thoughts. (4) Or, he should consider the compound nature of these thoughts. (5) Or, with teeth clenched and tongue pressed against the gums, he should with his mind restrain, suppress and root out these thoughts;
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Anicca
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by Anicca »

Howdy Jackson!
From : DN 22 Maha-satipatthana Sutta: The Great Frames of Reference
OBSERVING UNSKILLFUL QUALITIES:

"... And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

"When the mind is restricted, he discerns that the mind is restricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released. ...

USING INTENT TO STOP UNSKILLFUL QUALITIES:
.. And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort.
Seems there are times for just observing and times for "exerting intent for the abondoning or non-arising".

In my understanding - supressing emotions can be harmful if a proper "stress release" is not utilised.

metta
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Goofaholix
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by Goofaholix »

Thought Substitution? If it means literally substituting one thought for another then I've never heard of such a technique other than as a short term measure to deal with particularly difficult thought patterns.

Where did you learn this?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
jackson
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by jackson »

Goofaholix wrote:Thought Substitution? If it means literally substituting one thought for another then I've never heard of such a technique other than as a short term measure to deal with particularly difficult thought patterns.

Where did you learn this?
The wording is probably my own and is actually a rather poor description, but the technique I learned from Ayya Khema and I was just reading about it again in Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The Noble Eightfold Path: Way to the End of Suffering", basically substituting ill-will with metta, greed with renunciation, thoughts of harm with karuna. Bhikkhu Bodhi describes it as intention, which definitely encompasses more than just thought. I hope that helps, and if anyone knows the pali term for what I'm talking about I'd love to hear it!
With metta, :smile:
Jackson
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah
Anicca
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by Anicca »

Goofaholix wrote: ... other than as a short term measure to deal with particularly difficult thought patterns.
If you live only in the moment - If there exists only "now" - what's wrong with "short term"? Dealing with the moment at hand can solve long term problems, eh? :tongue:

Thought substitution?
When road rage surfaces - one technique I use is to see the other drivers as either myself as a teen-ager (hell on wheels) or as my mother ("Bless and save us said Mrs. O'Davis" - she never really learned to drive but got her license, somehow, at age 50+).
I end up laughing at my road rage.

When angry I substitute discernment (ala the three year old child in me) by asking "why" repeatedly until -
I end up laughing at my anger.

I just wish I had less to laugh about.

metta
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bodom
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by bodom »

In an important discourse the Buddha explains five techniques for expelling distracting thoughts.[43] The first is to expel the defiled thought with a wholesome thought which is its exact opposite, analogous to the way a carpenter might use a new peg to drive out an old one. For each of the five hindrances there is a specific remedy, a line of meditation designed expressly to deflate it and destroy it. This remedy can be applied intermittently, when a hindrance springs up and disrupts meditation on the primary subject; or it can be taken as a primary subject itself, used to counter a defilement repeatedly seen to be a persistent obstacle to one's practice. But for the antidote to become effective in the first role, as a temporary expedient required by the upsurge of a hindrance, it is best to gain some familiarity with it by making it a primary object, at least for short periods. - Bhikkhu Bodhi

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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mikenz66
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Bodom, The reference is:
MN 20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .soma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion arise in a bhikkhu through reflection on an adventitious object, he should, (in order to get rid of that), reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).

Like an experienced carpenter or carpenter's apprentice, striking hard at, pushing out, and getting rid of a coarse peg with a fine one, should the bhikkhu in order to get rid of the adventitious object, reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).
:anjali:
Mike
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Mr Man
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by Mr Man »

bodom wrote:
This indicates the need for effort and not just passive observance.
I'm not sure if there is such a thing as passive observance. Observance is an act of effort. It is also an act of restraint and an act of relinquishment.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
bodom wrote:
This indicates the need for effort and not just passive observance.
I'm not sure if there is such a thing as passive observance. Observance is an act of effort. It is also an act of restraint and an act of relinquishment.
It does take effort to cultivate the mind so that one can watch a dangerous emotion without reacting to it, either by buying into it, or by trying to get rid of it, both of which can bring up a host other emotions and attachments.

With a well cultivated mind, staying on task is an act of effort but, surprisingly, it need not be a struggle. And in that the act of watching the dangerous emotion is a restraint, in that one does not feed the dangerous emotion by buying into it or by trying to get rid of it, which can very easily feed aversion.

The relinquishment comes with seeing -- not conceptually thinking about -- the conditioning and conditioned nature of the dangerous emotion as it manifests in a field of attention, and one comes to see just where and how the that emotion is dangerous, making it much easier not to get carried away by it, not to get lost in it, making it easier to genuinely let it go.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Bundokji
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by Bundokji »

IHello :smile:

tilt's answer reminds me of a Dhamma talk by Ajahn Chah which I find relevant to the topic discussed:
This truth of uncertainty, this short and simple truth, at the same time so profound and faultless, people tend to ignore. They tend to see things differently. Don't cling to goodness, don't cling to badness. These are attributes of the world. We are practicing to be free of the world, so bring these things to an end. The Buddha taught to lay them down, to give them up, because they only cause suffering
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYtCAEeliVo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Abs.truth
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by Abs.truth »

I think we should experiment (within the bounds of Buddhist teachings) and see things while staying mindful :idea: . Thankfully, we have the basic guidelines laid out, and rest can be experimented in an interactive way. The following article explains this further:
http://truth-ada.blogspot.com.au/2015/0 ... anual.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
murphythecat8
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Re: Thought substitution vs. Observing feeling

Post by murphythecat8 »

im very surprised by the question as it is a very central technique I use. mindfulness of thoughts is so very important! the method is called four supreme efforts. EFFORTS! :)

the buddha recommended many method to substitute unwholesome thoughts. how can one be mindful of his thought any other way but by substituting unwholesome thoughts with wholesome. any unwholesome thoughts that stay in the mind creates suffering. as s0on as one is mindful of his thought and see a unwholesome thoughts, he must do something about it. not observe it, why would you want to observe a thought that creates suffering? you have to substitute the unwholesome by the wholesome. the buddha said that and recommend that.


However, once the unwholesome thought have been replaced by wholesome thoughts, we have to go back to mindfulness of body immediately because its much more calm and conductive to calm and peace.

Ayya khema talks about it in great length and put a HUGE emphasis on the 4 supreme efforts in a lot of her talks.

mindfulness is the entry door. if you dont know what to do when faced with unwholesome thoughts, you must be very serious about this thread and look carefully at the instructions given on this most important matter.

the four supreme efforts are:
(1) not to let an unwholesome thought arise which has not
yet arisen,
(2) not to let an unwholesome thought continue which has already arisen,
(3) to make a wholesome thought arise which has not yet arisen
(4) to make a wholesome thought continue which has already arisen


''
The Buddha gave very exact instructions how to counteract any unskillful mind states and produce skillful ones. They can briefly be expressed as "avoiding," "overcoming," "developing," and "maintaining," and are called the four supreme efforts, which have been briefly mentioned before. They are part of the 37 factors of enlightenment, so must be part of our practice. When perfected they are part of the enlightenment process.

The four supreme efforts are, in the first place, the avoiding of unwholesome, unskillful thought processes. If we look at them as unskillful, we can accept the fact of learning a new skill more easily. Avoiding means we do not let certain thoughts arise, neither reactions to moods, nor to outside triggers. If we find ourselves habitually reacting in the same way to the same kind of situation, we may be forced to avoid such situations, so that we can finally gain the insight which needs to be culled from it. While we are reacting to a situation or mood, we can't assess it dispassionately, because our reactions overpowers the mind. ''

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/khe ... fforts.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by murphythecat8 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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