Break the 1st fetter & conceit to uproot greed/hatred?

[starter]

Hi, friend,

Happy Thanks-giving!

I feel the means for conquering greed and hatred summarized in the commentaries are not really cutting the root of the hindrances, but are rather temporary substitutions and suppressions. Can we use insight and wisdom to uproot greed and hatred, in addition to those methods? The root of greed and hatred seems to be the delusion of self (selfhood, a self-made prison) and papanca/conceit built upon this delusion; we crave for things we like and deject things we dislike. It seems to me that the first fetter of attachment to self (“self identity view” and the underlying tendency to conceit) has to be broken first in order to uproot greed and hatred, which explains why it's the most basic fetter. When “his heart is devoid of I-making & my-making with regard to this conscious body (the 5 aggregates) and externally with regard to all themes (the 6 sense objects)”, he no longer has greed and hatred.

But how to truly break the 1st fetter? It doesn't seem to be difficult to correct “self identity view” by realizing the 3 characteristics (annica, dukkha and anatta) of the 5 aggregates; however, the underlying tendency to "I-making" and "My-making" (self-attachment and conceit) is really not easy to abandon. Here is my understanding of conceit and approach to its abandonment, and your comments and suggestions would be highly appreciated:

Conceit (fabricated 'Ego') is a distorted perception / belief based on false assumption (mental fabrication of I-making and my-making) about oneself and others, and is merely a manifestation of self-identification with and clinging to the aggregates of perception and mental fibrications. “Through conceit we think of ourselves in terms of "I' and compare ourselves favourably or unfavourably with others”.

To uproot the defilement of conceit, this I-making and my-making processes / self-centeredness or selfishness has to be eradicated by penetrating that the so-called "I" or “he” is merely a self delusion and a prison we constructed for ourselves. I try to focus on the present ("Just what there is") without making self-centered mental fibrications about what’s behind the present (the wisdom of the Buddha), see myself as “this body” and others as “other bodies” without linking them to “I”, “my”, “he”, “his” and without comparing “I” with “he”; just watch myself without judging others (well, easier to say than to do).

I also try to stop “papanca” – stop perceiving the six sense objects based upon one’s notions and self-centered/distorted views and assumptions, and see things just as they are without a “swollen head” soaked in “I” and “My” – they are just their own natural mechanisms, neither good nor bad, neither attractive nor ugly. Then we can accept the 6 sense objects as they are without desiring they be otherwise, and we can follow the course of nature without cravings or aversions.

I try to contemplate daily on the three characteristics of the five aggregates, especially on the aggregates of perception and fibrications for removing conceit and papanca, and remind the mind that these perceptions, views, notions, opinions, ideas, beliefs are not me or mine, can’t be trusted, and shall not be allowed to take control of the mind.

As "tiltbillings" kindly advised, "better is simply to learn to be mindful". “A radical cure depends on the control of one's own mind, using mindfulness and wisdom to brake and critically check, enabling the mind to free itself from its delusions. This is the complete cure of Dhamma.”

By the way, I wonder why “conceit” is not included in the first fetter of “self identity view” (the most basic fetter), but rather among the higher fetters which only the arahants have to remove – To me, if the first fetter is really broken, there should be no conceit.

PS: The Buddha warned us: as long as our minds are not free from defilements, we should not trust our thoughts (which are all distorted delusions).
He also taught us: there is no higher practice than to see that "this is not my self and does not belong to me". In the Meghiya Sutta the Buddha said: "Medhiya, perception of not-self (anatta-sanna) appears to one who has perception of impermanence (anicca-sanna); one who perceives not-self removes ego conceit (asmimana) and experiences nibbana here and now (dittha-dhamma)."

[Cloud]

There is a world of difference between the wisdom of no-self as reality of the Sotapanna and the complete non-identification of the Arahant. Though we can be mindful and attempt to see the reality of things as they would be known with a selfless perspective, our minds are yet subject to the defilements and we are quite capable of coming to incorrect conclusions and judging others. Only at the stage of Arahant is conceit no longer capable of arising; the abandonment of the fetters is systematic and as far as I know it's not possible to pick and choose which. We may lessen, or weaken, a fetter individually through our meditative efforts but the fetter itself will only fall away (or weaken in the case of the Non-Returner) at a specific stage of enlightenment along with others that are in causal relation; i.e., have the same base ignorance as a condition for arising.

Another way of saying "conceit" is "measuring". Any form of measuring one thing against another is a form of conceit. Only breaking through all conceptions do we understand fully the duality our minds create in such mental maneuvering. This isn't something that happens by our choosing or before all requisite conditions have been met. Though it may frustrate us, there is much work to be done and few if any shortcuts.

[starter]

... the abandonment of the fetters is systematic and as far as I know it's not possible to pick and choose which. We may lessen, or weaken, a fetter individually through our meditative efforts but the fetter itself will only fall away (or weaken in the case of the Non-Returner) at a specific stage of enlightenment along with others that are in causal relation; i.e., have the same base ignorance as a condition for arising.

Another way of saying "conceit" is "measuring". Any form of measuring one thing against another is a form of conceit. Only breaking through all conceptions do we understand fully the duality our minds create in such mental maneuvering. This isn't something that happens by our choosing or before all requisite conditions have been met. Though it may frustrate us, there is much work to be done and few if any shortcuts.

Hello Cloud,

Nice to have you join our forum, and thanks a lot for your very helpful comments (your very 1st post). I wonder if the abandonment of the fetters has to be systematic, and if our insight and wisdom can be used to remove the fetters as the most effective "shortcuts" (in comparison to the methods of temporary substitution and suppression). I believe that the fetter of skeptical doubt to the Buddha and Dhamma can be completely broken after penetrating the Buddha's unique Non-self/No-selfhood approach to liberation, before completely breaking the first fetter. I wonder if it's more efficient to focus our effort on the removal of the first fetter and the related fetter of conceit (even though not completely) instead of trying to abandon greed/hatred as the first sets of hindrances. With metta,

Starter

[rowyourboat]

Fetters are removed sequentially, and because that is the only way they can be removed.

There is no specific targeting of each fetter- they fall away if the correct samatha-vipassana methods are followed.

with metta

[starter]

Fetters are removed sequentially, and because that is the only way they can be removed.

There is no specific targeting of each fetter- they fall away if the correct samatha-vipassana methods are followed.

with metta

Hi RYB,

Thanks for your help. I wonder which samatha-vipassana methods you have been using? It appears to me that these methods have worked well for you ...

Please reply to this question only if it's convenient to you. All the best,

Starter

[rowyourboat]

Hi Starter

This should get you started:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta

Matheesha

[Cloud]

You're very welcome, starter. I post on another Buddhist forum that is not tradition-specific, where wires can get crossed easily, so at least here I know the questions/answers are expected to be Theravadin.

I would also advocate Samatha-Vipassana.

The Noble Eightfold Path factors of sila/morality allow one to develop a blameless mental attitude as well as to cultivate wholesome mental states (such as generosity) and abandon unwholesome states (such as hate) when Right Effort is applied. This gives us a "clean" mind to work with. Samatha calms this mind and Vipassana gives us direct experience of the underlying truths and causality of sensations, feeling, thoughts et cetera... which helps us to understand the teachings in new and deeper ways, turning over the rocks to reveal that which was hidden.

Generally speaking when we come to a teaching that we can't understand despite studying it, thinking about it, or talking about it with others... there's something missing from our experience of life that is needed to unlock our understanding. Vipassana is a worthy method, held in high esteem by the wise.

One could say that all we need are the Four Noble Truths. They contain everything the Buddha taught, including the Noble Eightfold Path. We make things much more complicated, but it's really that simple. The Noble Eightfold Path is the most direct route, a multi-faceted targeting reticule we have been given to point our minds toward Nirvana (since we can't "know" it directly until we awaken).