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Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering? - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:08 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:13 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:23 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:25 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:28 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:30 am

Greetings Tilt,

I'm still not clear on whether you're speaking technically about...

i) kamma(cetana)/vipaka
ii) "cause and effect"

Hence, I can't respond (yet)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:36 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:37 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:48 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:51 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:53 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:02 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:20 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:22 am

Greetings Cooran,

You might not realise it, but we're actually in agreement.... vipaka isn't just "what happens after we kill something" (i.e. soggy shoes, squashed slug), it's the experienced resultant of a volitional action.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:26 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:32 am

Hello all,

Just so we're all on the same page:
Kamma: advantageous or disadvantageous action; Sanskrit karma, Pāli: kamma: 'action', correctly speaking denotes the advantageous and disadvantageous intentions kusala and akusala-cetanā and their concomitant mental properties, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny of beings. These kammical intentions kammacetanā become manifest as advantageous or disadvantageous actions by body kāya-kamma speech vacī-kamma and mind mano-kamma Thus the Buddhist term 'kamma' by no means signifies the result of actions, and quite certainly not the fate of man, or perhaps even of whole nations the so-called wholesale or mass-kamma, misconceptions which, through the influence of theosophy, have become widely spread in the West.

intention cetanā o Bhikkhus, is what I call action cetanāham bhikkhave kammam vadāmi for through intention one performs the action by body, speech or mind.. There is kamma action, o Bhikkhus, that ripens in hell. Kamma that ripens in the animal world.. Kamma that ripens in the world of men. Kamma that ripens in the divine world. Threefold, however, is the fruit of kamma: ripening during the life-time dittha-dhamma-vedanīya-kamma ripening in the next birth upapajja-vedanīya-kamma ripening in later births aparāpariya-vedanīya kamma... A.VI, 63.

The 3 conditions or roots mūla of disadvantageous kamma actions are greed, hatred, confusion lobha dosa moha those of advantageous kamma are: unselfishness alobha hatelessness adosa = mettā good-will, unconfusedness amoha = paññā knowledge.
Greed, o Bhikkhus, is a condition for the arising of kamma; hatred is a condition for the arising of kamma; confusion is a condition for the arising of kamma. A. III, 109.

The disadvantageous actions are of 3 kinds, conditioned by greed, or hate, or confusion.
Killing... stealing... unlawful sexual intercourse... lying... slandering... rude speech... foolish babble, if practised, carried on, and frequently cultivated, leads to rebirth in hell, or amongst the animals, or amongst the ghosts A. III, 40. He who kills and is cruel goes either to hell or, if reborn as man, will be short-lived. He who torments others will be afflicted with disease. The angry one will look ugly, the envious one will be without influence, the stingy one will be poor, the stubborn one will be of low descent, the indolent one will be without knowledge. In the contrary case, man will be reborn in heaven or reborn as man, he will be long-lived, possessed of beauty, influence, noble descent and knowledge cf. M. 135.
For the above 10-fold advantageous and disadvantageous course of action, see kamma-patha For the 5 heinous crimes with immediate result, see: ānantarika-kamma

Owners of their kamma are the beings, heirs of their kamma, their kamma is their womb from which they are born, their kamma is their friend, their refuge. Whatever kamma they perform, good or bad, thereof they will be the heirs M. 135.

With regard to the time of the taking place of the kamma-result vipāka one distinguishes, as mentioned above, 3 kinds of kamma:
1. kamma ripening during the life-time dittha-dhamma-vedanīya kamma
2. kamma ripening in the next birth upapajja-vedanīya-kamma
3. kamma ripening in later births aparāpariya-vedanīya-kamma

The first two kinds of kamma may be without kamma-result vipāka if the circumstances required for the taking place of the kamma-result are missing, or if, through the preponderance of counteractive kamma and their being too weak, they are unable to produce any result. In this case they are called ahosi-kamma lit. 'kamma that has been', in other words, ineffectual kamma.

The third type of kamma, however, which bears fruit in later lives, will, whenever and wherever there is an opportunity, be productive of kamma-result. Before its result has ripened, it will never become ineffective as long as the life-process is kept going by craving and ignorance.

According to the Com., e.g. Vis.M XIX, the 1st of the 7 kammical impulse-moments kamma javana s. javana is considered as 'kamma ripening during the life-time', the 7th moment as 'kamma ripening in the next birth', the remaining 5 moments as 'kamma ripening in later births'.

With regard to their functions one distinguishes:
1. regenerative or productive kamma janaka-kamma,
2. supportive or consolidating kamma upatthambhaka-kamma,
3. counteractive suppressive or frustrating kamma upapīlaka-kamma,
4. destructive or supplanting kamma upaghātaka or upacchedaka-kamma

1 produces the 5 groups of existence materiality, feeling, perception, mental constructions, consciousness at rebirth as well as during life-continuity.
2 does not produce kamma-results but is only able to maintain the already produced kamma-results.
3 counteracts or suppresses the kamma-results.
4 destroys the influence of a weaker kamma and effects only its own result.

With regard to the priority of their result one distinguishes:
1. weighty kamma garuka-kamma,
2. habitual kamma ācinnaka or bahula-kamma,
3. death-proximate kamma maranāsanna-kamma,
4. stored-up kamma katattā-kamma
1, 2: The weighty garuka and the habitual bahula advantageous or disadvantageous kamma are ripening earlier than the light and rarely performed kamma. 3: The death-proximate maranāsanna kamma - i.e. the advantageous or disadvantageous intention present immediately before death, which often may be the reflex of some previously performed good or evil action kamma or of a sign of it kamma-nimitta or of a sign of the future existence gati-nimitta - produces rebirth. 4: In the absence of any of these three actions at the moment before death, the stored-up katattā kamma will produce rebirth.
A real, and in the ultimate sense true, understanding of Buddhist kamma doctrine is possible only through a deep insight into the impersonality see: anattā and conditionality see: paticcasamuppāda paccaya of all phenomena of existence. Everywhere, in all the forms of existence... such a one is beholding merely mental and physical phenomena kept going by their being bound up through causes and effects.

No doer does he see behind the deeds, no recipient apart from the kamma-fruit. And with full insight he clearly understands that the wise ones are using merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of any action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the kamma-results at their arising. Therefore the ancient masters have said:
'No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits;
Empty phenomena roll on:
This view alone is right and true.
'And whilst the deeds and their results
Roll on, based on conditions all,
There no beginning can be seen,
Just as it is with seed and tree.' Vis.M XIX
Kamma kamma-paccaya is one of the 24 conditions paccaya App.: Kamma.
Literature: Kamma and Rebirth, by Nyanatiloka WHEEL 9; Survival and Kamma in Buddhist Perspective, by K.N. Jayatilleke WHEEL 141/143; Kamma and its Fruit WHEEL 221/224.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_k.htm

Vipāka: 'kamma-result' or 'effect of action', is any kammically morally neutral mental phenomenon e.g. bodily pleasant or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc., which is the result of advantageous or disadvantageous intentional action kamma through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any kammically advantageous or disadvantageous intentional action the result of former action, being in reality itself kamma. On this subject see: titthāyatana kamma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 Guide, p. 80.
Kamma-produced kammaja or kamma-samutthāna material things are never called kamma-vipāka as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_v.htm

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Ben » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:32 am

Hi Retro
So Angulimala experiencing the vedanas of being belted on the head with clods was his kamma but being belted by the clods were not kamma?
Thanks

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:42 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:46 am

Sorry to butt in, but there is also a small possibility that the Buddha was helping Ven Angulimala accept what was happening to him and not give rise to unwholesome thoughts. After all, why console him by saying essentially that it was much better that this was happening now than him enduring hell for what he had done?

Of course, there is a possibility that the text isn't faithful to the original exchange too...

As for the various positions - tilt's position seems to be common sense, I am not sure I understand retro's position...
_/|\_

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:54 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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