Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:58 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
Sylvester wrote:Might you perhaps be thinking of Geoff's "unestablished consciousness"? IMHO, this is a unicorn born from Ven Nanananda's unfortunate translations. Ven N translates "tadappatittham vinnanam" in SN 22.53 as "that unestablished consciousness..." ... this is a very poor attempt to reify something that does not exist

As I've already taken the time to reply in detail to your query, your repeated and intentional fallback to absurd characterizations is completely fallacious and does nothing to contribute to the discussion in an honest and meaningful way.

Ñāṇa wrote:As for my rendering of "unestablished" (appatiṭṭha) as an adjective for a "consciousness which does not become established," this is in keeping with the sense of the above from Ven. Ñāṇananda. One could designate it as mental-consciousness (manoviññāṇa), as per MN 38: "[W]hen consciousness arises dependent on the mind and mind-objects, it is reckoned as mind-consciousness." This is what the early ābhidhammikas have decided, adding that said mental-consciousness is classified within the unincluded level (apariyāpanna bhūmi). That's fine by me, but doesn't really convey the full meaning of Ven. Ñāṇananda's interpretation of SN 12.64 and Udāna 8.1 (PTS Ud 80).


Sylvester wrote:I've searched the Canon, and I can't seem to find any context in which consciousness is not estasblished, except in the context of Parinibbana. So, even if this unicorn exists, it does not seem relevant to an living Arahant.

Your reading of the relevant suttas is mistaken. Yet once again you're running off at the mouth without having the foggiest idea of what Ven. Ñāṇananda and Ven. Bodhi and Ven. Ṭhānissaro are indicating.


Let's be honest about the dishonesty here.

You're evading my critique of Ven Nanananda's creative translation of all the suttas he relies upon for this "unestablished consciousness". You'd cited Ven N and I've given my reasons why I find his characterisation wrong. What was dishonest, unmeaningful or fallacious about my disagreement or reasoning? I did not disagree with anything you offered, since you offered nothing but a reference to Ven N's theory. That being the case, I'm taking potshots at Ven N's translations. BB also took potshots in his SN (p.421) at the "unestablished consciousness" campers, so does that make BB dishonest or unmeaningful?

If your only comeback to my critique are those empty ad hominems and ex cathedras, WHOPPEE!! :woohoo: They are nothing but the calling cards of those unable to respond.

If you wish to demonstrate one iota of honesty and willingness to discuss, let's discuss Ven Nanananda's, Ven Thanissaro's and BB's translations of those 2 suttas and address my critique of Ven N's translation. Pontificating does not belong in this sasana.

The ball is in your court.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Nyana » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:17 am

Sylvester wrote:The ball is in your court.

I have no more time for you bud. Zero.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sylvester,

Implicit in your objection is the assumption that discussion of the experience of the arahant is to be included as a subject within the sutta to that point.

On the other hand, I believe it only applies to the tail end portion, which is an abbreviated form of what is known loosely as "transcendental dependent origination"...


Fair enough, we can agree to disagree on this. I obviously take the Arahant's experience of Nirodha Sammapatti to be no different from an Anagamin's experience of the same. If the AN 9s can say this -

Sandiṭṭhikaṃ nibbānaṃ, sandiṭṭhikaṃ nibbānan’ti, āvuso, vuccati. Kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, sandiṭṭhikaṃ nibbānaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā”ti? 389“Idhāvuso, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi…pe… paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, sandiṭṭhikaṃ nibbānaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā pariyāyena…pe… . 390Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhu sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ upasampajja viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti. Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, sandiṭṭhikaṃ nibbānaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā nippariyāyenā”ti.


ie Nirodha sammapatti is nothing less than Nibbana-Here-&-Now-Without-A -Sequel, this seems highly suggestive that for the rest of the Arahant's time when he/she is not in a Jhana or Nirodha Sammapatti, he/she is still experiencing Dukkha.


retrofuturist wrote:As Venerable Nanavira says in his note on dependent origination. - http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=62

Sankhārā in the usual twelve-factored paticcasamuppāda series can include such a mixed collection of things as intentions of merit, demerit, and imperturbability, in-&-out-breaths, thinking-&-pondering, and perception and feeling. These things, one and all, are things that other things depend on, and as such are sankhārā of one kind or another; and so long as there are sankhārā of any kind at all there is viññāna and everything dependent upon viññāna, in other words there is paticcasamuppāda.


I assume you agree paticcasamuppāda does not apply to arahants?


Sadly, retro, that will have to be a position that I cannot take unreservedly, and I now see where the problem lies. It is that old problem that I have with Ven Nanavira's inclusion into DO's "sankhara" the 3 sankhara of MN 44. BB has criticised this and he points the very specific context and function of MN 44's 3 sankharas, as opposed to DO's sankharas which are invariably described as being intention/sancetana (eg SN 12.25 (in the section of the SN dedicated to analysis of DO).

BUT, there is a problem also with BB's critique, as MN 9's and SN 12.2 discussion of DO does depart from SN 12.25; instead of referring to manosankhara (per SN 12.25), it uses cittasankhara (per MN 44). Might there have been a transmission error or should the sankharas in MN 44 indeed be distinguished from the sankharas in MN 9 and SN 12.2? Something for the Early Buddhism pandits to work on... But coming back to your query on my view of DO and an Arahant, I would just reiterate what I've expressed before - I believe some of the nidanas are cut off forever and inoperative, eg vedana-tanha. But some of the other nidanas will persist, eg salayatana-phassa, phassa-vedana.

retrofuturist wrote:
Might you perhaps be thinking of Geoff's "unestablished consciousness"?

Not particularly... though trying to play me off against either Geoff or venerable Nanananda, isn't likely to be particularly successful as a means of convincing me of anything.



I'm sorry if I left you with that impression. I would only play you off against Ven N, if I believed you to have blind faith in Ven N and I thought it might be worthwhile making fun of a "guru" figure. Assuredly, I believe your critical faculties to be intact and that you should be able to judge whether or not something Ven N teaches is in line with the Dhamma. :anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:40 pm

Greetings Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:But coming back to your query on my view of DO and an Arahant, I would just reiterate what I've expressed before - I believe some of the nidanas are cut off forever and inoperative, eg vedana-tanha. But some of the other nidanas will persist, eg salayatana-phassa, phassa-vedana.

Similar to Tilt, then. I still find that very difficult to resolve with the following standard formula which doesn't hop, skip and jump around the nidanas (merely showing them cease in the same order that they arose), but like me, I'm sure you have your respective reasons, even if no one is prepared to come out and say precisely how else they understand the sequencing involved in the following tract of text (particularly as it pertains from consciousness through to vedana).

I appreciate that we have the opportunity to share our views and consider them in light of each other's personal findings.

SN 12.15 wrote:Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:01 pm

Hi retro

I've intimated previously my thoughts about the care that needs to be exercised when reading the DO sequences, whether in forward or reverse orders. It's the temporal ambiguity of the locative absolute that underlies the iddapaccayata formula.

Furthermore, there is another way of expressing the SN 12.25 cessation sequence to be found in the Ariyasavaka Sutta, SN 12.49 -

Atha kho, bhikkhave, sutavato ariyasāvakassa aparappaccayā ñāṇamevettha hoti— ‘imasmiṃ asati idaṃ na hoti, imassa nirodhā idaṃ nirujjhati. Avijjāya asati saṅkhārā na honti; saṅkhāresu asati viññāṇaṃ na hoti; viññāṇe asati nāmarūpaṃ na hoti; nāmarūpe asati saḷāyatanaṃ na hoti…pe… bhavo na hoti… jāti na hoti… jātiyā asati jarāmaraṇaṃ na hotī’ti. So evaṃ pajānāti— ‘evamayaṃ loko nirujjhatī’ti.

Rather, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple has knowledge about this that is independent of others :
"When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases.
When there is no ignorance, volitional formations do not come to be. When there is no consciousness, name & form does not come to be. When there is no name & form, the six sense bases do not come to be etc etc etc.

per BB's translation at p585


What this sutta is trying to say, IMHO, is that the nirodha/cessation explicated in the more standard cessation pericopes of DO should be understood to include the first line of the 2nd iddapaccayata formula, ie "imasmiṃ asati idaṃ na hoti". The reverse order of DO does not deal with cessation only (in the sense of something ending), but as Ven Payutto puts it, nirodha in the standard sequence should also be understood as "non-arising" (ie the first line of the iddapacayata sequence). This would extend DO's reverse order to a description of when something is not present, something else is not/will not be. This formula brings out more starkly the temporal possibilities for how DO disbands.

I hope this explains a little better my belief that the unravelling of DO for an Arahant is not complete until the Arahant's parinibbana.

I hereby predict that the next contentious thread will be one that agonises over which of the nidanas are extinguished in a living Arahant, and which are to be extinguished only at parinabbana. :rofl:

PS - I just noticed the Participatory Anthropic Principle in your signature. So, what is the dhatu of the Schroedinger Equation wave before it collapsed? Or is it defined yet by another neither atthi nor natthi proposition?
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby beeblebrox » Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:50 pm

Sylvester wrote:
Rather, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple has knowledge about this that is independent of others :
"When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases.
When there is no ignorance, volitional formations do not come to be. When there is no consciousness, name & form does not come to be. When there is no name & form, the six sense bases do not come to be etc etc etc.

per BB's translation at p585


What this sutta is trying to say, IMHO, is that the nirodha/cessation explicated in the more standard cessation pericopes of DO should be understood to include the first line of the 2nd iddapaccayata formula, ie "imasmiṃ asati idaṃ na hoti". The reverse order of DO does not deal with cessation only (in the sense of something ending), but as Ven Payutto puts it, nirodha in the standard sequence should also be understood as "non-arising" (ie the first line of the iddapacayata sequence). This would extend DO's reverse order to a description of when something is not present, something else is not/will not be. This formula brings out more starkly the temporal possibilities for how DO disbands.

I hope this explains a little better my belief that the unravelling of DO for an Arahant is not complete until the Arahant's parinibbana.


So, when there's no more ignorance, then the "new" sankharas don't arise. When there's no more "new" sankharas, then "new" consciousness don't arise, and so on.

The consciousness continues to persist because of the specific sankharas that gave rise to it, were already arisen. One can't time-travel to the past to undo these... but he can see them for what they are, disidentify with them, and then let them go to their complete end at parinibbana.

The specific consciousness will not end just because some ignorance in the future, the one that didn't give rise to it, has been ceased. Is that basically it?

:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:26 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Your post reflects why we cannot reach consensus - different definitions and understanding of key terms, specifically 'sankata' and what constitutes a formed dhamma/experience...
Not that you have shown, but you do seem be side-step the issue.

I'm comfortable not to come to consensus on this issue, and i shan't attempt measurement of arahant by conditioned measures.
The problem is, you have backed yourself into a corner. As I have said, that the arahant does not identify with khandhas, attach herself to the idea of the khandhas, does not mean that the khandhas cease functioning. The arahants simply comphrehends the interdependent nature of the khandhas, making them no longer defined by attachment to the khandhas.

Once again, what do the cessation of the pre-tanha nidanas mean to you. The suttas claim cessation of those things for the arahant yet you seem to take offense at this notion and decline to explain what their cessation means to you. Perhaps there is no pre-death explanation that meets with your comfort?
Perhaps I already dealt with it:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382&start=260#p126293 :

These things [the cessation of the pre-tanha nidanas] cease, I would say, in terms of being defining characteristics for the consciousness/awareness. As consciousness arises it no longer measures itself in those terms, being free of the limitations of having to define itself in terms of grasping after (greed), pushing away (hatred), and misapphrehension of things as they are in terms of self (delusion). While the old kamma and conditioning plays itself out, there is no further kamma put together, there is no further impetus grasping after the next moment or the next life, impelling one forward.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:45 pm

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Not that you have shown, but you do seem be side-step the issue.

It's not a side-step... it's simply why the conversation between us cannot progress, and would merely become the dog chasing its tail. As I have said a few times now, I'm comfortable with that.

tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, you have backed yourself into a corner.

Again, in your eyes, because as you admit, you have no idea of what I'm talking about. Having no idea what my position actually is, such comments are meaningless.

tiltbillings wrote:These things [the cessation of the pre-tanha nidanas] cease, I would say, in terms of being defining characteristics for the consciousness/awareness. As consciousness arises it no longer measures itself in those terms, being free of the limitations of having to define itself in terms of grasping after (greed), pushing away (hatred), and misapphrehension of things as they are in terms of self (delusion). While the old kamma and conditioning plays itself out, there is no further kamma put together, there is no further impetus grasping after the next moment or the next life, impelling one forward.

Again, different definitions, different understandings... and since you still don't understand mine, every time you think you're arguing against a point I make, you're inadvertently arguing with a strawman. No progress can be made on that basis.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:06 pm

Greetings Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:What this sutta is trying to say, IMHO, is that the nirodha/cessation explicated in the more standard cessation pericopes of DO should be understood to include the first line of the 2nd iddapaccayata formula, ie "imasmiṃ asati idaṃ na hoti". The reverse order of DO does not deal with cessation only (in the sense of something ending), but as Ven Payutto puts it, nirodha in the standard sequence should also be understood as "non-arising" (ie the first line of the iddapacayata sequence). This would extend DO's reverse order to a description of when something is not present, something else is not/will not be. This formula brings out more starkly the temporal possibilities for how DO disbands.

Interesting idea. In my mind, this "non-arising" aspect of the arahant's experience is already sufficiently covered by the forward-moving dependent origination sequence to the extent that because there is no avijja, the subsequent formations do not arise. I do not think the "arising" aspect of iddapaccayata has any real meaning for the arahant. It actually seems to me as if it's the "when this is..." component that is causing the contention in this topic, even more than the "with the ceasing of this...". I say this because we all agree these things cease at some points during the life of an arahant, yet I believe we have different understanding of what the pre-tanha terms even mean, i.e. what "this is".

Sylvester wrote:I hope this explains a little better my belief that the unravelling of DO for an Arahant is not complete until the Arahant's parinibbana.

A couple of follow up questions, if you'll oblige...

Does this mean you only believe an arahant transcends dukkha (the final nidana) through "death"?

If so, does this mean either that an arahant does not experience nibbana, or that nibbana and dukkha are either simultaneously present, or alternating?

Sylvester wrote:I just noticed the Participatory Anthropic Principle in your signature. So, what is the dhatu of the Schroedinger Equation wave before it collapsed? Or is it defined yet by another neither atthi nor natthi proposition?

Unfortunately, I have no idea. I learned the quote through one of Bhikkhu Samahita's Daily Drops of Dhamma, focusing on the subject of anatta and believed it was a very apt statement to reflect a phenomenological understanding of the Dhamma, devoid of realist or ontological overtones.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:12 pm

Greetings beeblebrox,

beeblebrox wrote:The consciousness continues to persist because of the specific sankharas that gave rise to it, were already arisen. One can't time-travel to the past to undo these... but he can see them for what they are, disidentify with them, and then let them go to their complete end at parinibbana.

I'm not sure if this was just a bit of loose language or not, but be careful not to slip into the fallacy of Sati the Fisherman's Son.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:23 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Not that you have shown, but you do seem be side-step the issue.

It's not a side-step... it's simply why the conversation between us cannot progress, and would merely become the dog chasing its tail. As I have said a few times now, I'm comfortable with that.

tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, you have backed yourself into a corner.

Again, in your eyes, because as you admit, you have no idea of what I'm talking about.
That is usually an invitation for the other person draw out their position, to help the confused party to get a grasp of what is being said, to help explain what is not being understood, which would be the polite thing to do, but since you do not want to do that, it obvious you do not want to have this discussion.

tiltbillings wrote:These things [the cessation of the pre-tanha nidanas] cease, I would say, in terms of being defining characteristics for the consciousness/awareness. As consciousness arises it no longer measures itself in those terms, being free of the limitations of having to define itself in terms of grasping after (greed), pushing away (hatred), and misapprehension of things as they are in terms of self (delusion). While the old kamma and conditioning plays itself out, there is no further kamma put together, there is no further impetus grasping after the next moment or the next life, impelling one forward.

Again, different definitions, different understandings... and since you still don't understand mine, every time you think you're arguing against a point I make, you're inadvertently arguing with a strawman. No progress can be made on that basis.
And again, no effort on your part to make known your meanings for these terms as you are using them, to draw out the meanings, help me understand what it is that you are saying, which would be the collegial thing to do, but you obviously have no interest in that. The failure here is yours.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:28 pm

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:That is usually an invitation for the other person draw out their position, to help the confused party to get a grasp of what is being said, to help explain what is not being understood, which would be the polite thing to do, but since you do not want to do that, it obvious you do not want to have this discussion.
...

And again, no effort on your part to make known your meanings for these terms as you are using them, to draw out the meanings, help me understand what it is that you are saying, which would be the collegial thing to do, but you obviously have no interest in that.

I've been drawing out the position for sixteen pages now and at this point I see nothing to suggest another sixteen pages would achieve the outcome of you understanding what I'm saying. Your earliest forays into this re-ignited topic were merely to poke at and dismiss what you didn't understand, and I don't get the impression much has really changed. The arrival of the man and cat in the tin-foil hat wasn't a sign of progress either.

tiltbillings wrote:The failure here is yours.

Since others (including at least one who agrees, and a few who have understood and disagree in part) have understood what I have said, that's a bold statement on your part, Tilt....

But as I've said several times now, that's fine. I'm not here to smash you like a crab in debate - only to discuss the Dhamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:43 pm

retrofuturist wrote:. . . .
The avatar had nothing to do with anything posted on this forum. It would not kill you to restate your position succinctly in terms of our exchanges, showing what I am missing in terms of what your position is. You flatly are refusing. The failure is yours.

But as I've said several times now, that's fine. I'm not here to smash you like a crab in debate - only to discuss the Dhamma
And you are doing neither.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:44 pm

If you say so, Tilt. You are entitled to your views.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:57 pm

retrofuturist wrote:If you say so, Tilt. You are entitled to your view.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Certainly in terms of "discussing" with me, you have made no real effort. Damdifino way. It is, however, too bad.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:59 pm

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Certainly in terms of "discussing" with me, you have made no real effort. Damdifino way. It is, however, too bad.

Search this topic and see how many times you see the phrase "Greetings Tilt".

If all that's in those posts constitutes "no real effort" in your mind... well, yes then, I guess it's just too bad.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Certainly in terms of "discussing" with me, you have made no real effort. Damdifino way. It is, however, too bad.

Search this topic and see how many times you see the phrase "Greetings Tilt".

If all that's in those posts constitutes "no real effort" in your mind... well, yes then, I guess it's just too bad.

Metta,
Retro. :)
And when it was obvious, and when it was directly stated, I did not have any idea of what you were talking about in terms of how you were interpreting sankhara, you made no real effort in that matter to draw out your particular meaning, you made no effort to correct my misunderstanding of your position. You refused.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:18 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:And when it was obvious, and when it was directly stated, I did not have any idea of what you were talking about in terms of how you were interpreting sankhara, you made no real effort in that matter to draw out your particular meaning, you made no effort to correct my misunderstanding of your position. You refused.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382&start=220#p126137

Since to be sankhata and to be paticcasamuppanna are one and the same thing, we see that each item in the series...

Paccudāvattati kho idam viññānam nāmarūpamhā nāparam gacchati; ettāvatā jāyetha vā jīyetha vā mīyetha vā cavetha vā uppajjetha vā yadidam nāmarūpapaccayā viññānam, viññānapaccayā nāmarūpam, nāmarūpapaccayā salāyatanam,

This consciousness turns back from name-&-matter, it does not go further; thus far may one be born or age or die or fall or arise; that is to say, with name-&-matter as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, name-&-matter; with name-&-matter as condition, six bases;...


... is preceded by a sankhāra upon which it depends, and that therefore the total collection of items in the series depends upon the total collection of their respective sankhārā. In this sense we might say that the total collection of items is sankhārapaccayā. But since this statement means only that each and every particular item of the series depends upon a particular sankhāra, it does not say anything fresh. Sankhārapaccayā, however, can be understood in a different way: instead of 'dependent upon a collection of particular sankhārā', we can take it as meaning 'dependent upon the fact that there are such things as sankhārā'. In the first sense sankhārapaccayā is the equivalent of paticcasamuppanna ('dependently arisen'), and applies to a given series as a collection of particular items; in the second sense sankhārapaccayā is the equivalent of paticcasamuppāda ('dependent arising'), and applies to a given series as the exemplification of a structural principle. In the second sense it is true quite generally of all formulations of paticcasamuppāda, and not merely of this formulation (since any other formulation will consist of some other set of particular items). Paticcasamuppāda is, in fact, a structural principle (formally stated in this Sutta passage...)

Api c'Udāyi titthatu pubbanto titthatu aparanto, dhammam te desessāmi: Imasmim sati idam hoti, imass'uppādā idam uppajjati; imasmim asati idam na hoti, imassa nirodhā idam nirujjhatī ti.

Majjhima viii,9 <M.ii,32>

But, Udāyi, let be the past, let be the future, I shall set you forth the Teaching: When there is this this is, with arising of this this arises; when there is not this this is not, with cessation of this this ceases.


...and not one or another specific chain of sankhārā. It is thus an over-simplification to regard any one given formulation in particular terms as paticcasamuppāda. Every such formulation exemplifies the principle: none states it. Any paticcasamuppāda series, purely in virtue of its being an exemplification of paticcasamuppāda, depends upon the fact that there are such things as sankhārā; and a fortiori the series (as quoted prior to the quotation above) depends upon the fact of the existence of sankhārā: if there were no such things as sankhārā there would be no such thing as paticcasamuppāda at all, and therefore no such thing as this individual formulation of it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:21 am

Yes, and interestingly, I dealt with that, but then you tell me I didn't.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:25 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Yes, and interestingly, I dealt with that, but then you tell me I didn't.

May you provide a link, then? I looked for a response to that explanation but saw none.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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