Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:45 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies

From a suttanta perspective I don't think that we can ever equate an arahant with the aggregates. SN 22.36: Bhikkhu Sutta:

    Venerable sir, if one has no underlying tendency towards form... feeling... recognition... fabrications... consciousness, then one is not measured (anumīyati) in accord with it. Whatever one is not measured by, that is not how one is classified (saṅkha).

An arahant is utterly free from classification/reckoning (saṅkhayavimutta) in terms of form, feeling, recognition, fabrications, and consciousness. The only classification schemes that I've ever seen in the suttas regarding an arahant are the six sense spheres and six faculties. And there isn't any specific correlation ever made in the suttas between the sense spheres and faculties on the one hand, and the aggregates on the other.



Hi Geoff

I would offer a slightly different take on the anumiyati in SN 22.36. I suspect the "measuring" needs to be understood in the context of absence of the anusayas with respect to the Aggregates. The anusayas only "anuseti" when the cetasika vedanas come into play, as a sequel to vedana. But the total absence of anusayas in an arahant does not logically entail the disappearance of the Aggregates.

Perhaps the freedom from saṅkhaya in relation to the Aggregates is another way of putting across the implausibility of applying "sakkaya" to the Arahant, since MN 44 posits "sakkaya" as being only applicable to the upadanakhandha. I don't think these propositions need to be taken to mean the impossibility of understanding an Arahant in terms of the Aggregates, but simply as the impossibility of an Arahant relating to the Aggregates as "self" or holding any form of mana whatsoever.

To this extent, DO is in the final leg of its unravelling in the Arahant. But even then, we cannot discount that while the Arahant is still alive, some paccayas will continue to exert their influence in being the condition for their sequels. An Arahant cannot escape "phassa" (unless he/she pops into Nirodha Sammapatti), nor can vedana be avoided as a sequel to phassa. What can be certain is that the nidana between vedana and craving is gone forever.

We may have to revisit the old and constant issue of the difference between the khandhas simpliciter and upadanakhandha.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:57 am

Sylvester wrote: But the total absence of anusayas in an arahant does not logically entail the disappearance of the Aggregates.

Perhaps the freedom from saṅkhaya in relation to the Aggregates is another way of putting across the implausibility of applying "sakkaya" to the Arahant, since MN 44 posits "sakkaya" as being only applicable to the upadanakhandha. I don't think these propositions need to be taken to mean the impossibility of understanding an Arahant in terms of the Aggregates, but simply as the impossibility of an Arahant relating to the Aggregates as "self" or holding any form of mana whatsoever.

To this extent, DO is in the final leg of its unravelling in the Arahant. But even then, we cannot discount that while the Arahant is still alive, some paccayas will continue to exert their influence in being the condition for their sequels. An Arahant cannot escape "phassa" (unless he/she pops into Nirodha Sammapatti), nor can vedana be avoided as a sequel to phassa. What can be certain is that the nidana between vedana and craving is gone forever.

We may have to revisit the old and constant issue of the difference between the khandhas simpliciter and upadanakhandha.
Agreed.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:01 am

Greetings,

Just a thought I had that may or may not be relevant and I'm happy to take the guidance of others here....

Outside of the strict Mahavihara/Abhidhammist interpretation of "fruit" following immediately from "path", there is an acceptance of the possibility of one having attained to the path, without having yet attained the fruit (consider the difference between a lesser stream-entrant vs stream winner for example). In fact, there is a notion in the Pali tradition of an "eightfold noble assembly" consisting of the four ariya statuses, separated by path and fruit.

In light of that, is there the possibility that attaining the "path" of arahantship, is that which severs the fetters and is "nibbana with fuel remaining" and that the "fruit" is what is referred to as "release" and consists of "nibbana without remainder"? If true, this might help unravel the mystery in the Angulimala Sutta about him achieving arahatship before the infamous clod-throwing incident but obtaining 'release' afterwards.

(There is a useful definition somewhere in the Udana, I believe, on the difference between fuel/no-fuel... but can't seem to find it just now)

Thoughts? I'm more than happy to have it shot down if it's clearly false.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:12 am

Do non-Arahants ever discard suffering?
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:44 am

Greetings bhante,

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Do non-Arahants ever discard suffering?

I like your question.

As I see it, it will depend on whether avijja/vijja is regarded as temporal or structural (an interesting question in itself)

It also depends on what one means by discard. In my original question, I was suggesting discard as a permanent thing... i.e. not to return, in which case it would be "no", other than by attaining arahantship of course.

Metta,
Paul :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:01 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote: But the total absence of anusayas in an arahant does not logically entail the disappearance of the Aggregates.

Perhaps the freedom from saṅkhaya in relation to the Aggregates is another way of putting across the implausibility of applying "sakkaya" to the Arahant, since MN 44 posits "sakkaya" as being only applicable to the upadanakhandha. I don't think these propositions need to be taken to mean the impossibility of understanding an Arahant in terms of the Aggregates, but simply as the impossibility of an Arahant relating to the Aggregates as "self" or holding any form of mana whatsoever.

To this extent, DO is in the final leg of its unravelling in the Arahant. But even then, we cannot discount that while the Arahant is still alive, some paccayas will continue to exert their influence in being the condition for their sequels. An Arahant cannot escape "phassa" (unless he/she pops into Nirodha Sammapatti), nor can vedana be avoided as a sequel to phassa. What can be certain is that the nidana between vedana and craving is gone forever.

We may have to revisit the old and constant issue of the difference between the khandhas simpliciter and upadanakhandha.
Agreed.



But you didn't agree with ALL my propositions... :cry:

Seriously, I suspect that some of the difficulties about the readings of DO will go away very quickly if it is borne in mind that DO is a detailed example of "imasmim sati, idam hoti". This being in the locative absolute, the "this" and "that" can be concurrent, or "that" can follow "this" by any amount of time.

Just because avijja as a paccaya has been destroyed does not require DO to collapse in a heap at that instant. The paccaya having 'been' can assure that its effect may manifest many, many lifetimes later (although the 3 lifetimes model seems a more popular exposition). Eg sankhara as kamma builds up a habitual structure and could be the "corresponding engagement" that determines whether or not consciousness is established when the ayatana meets an indriya. The habit might take days or lifetimes to crystallise.

The same could be said for the locative absolute formulation of "Imasmim asati, idam na hoti". With the evaporation of avijja, the unravelling of some of its effects might take some time to show up. The Arahant still carries the salayatana around and that almost always leads to various types of phassa (except in various samadhis). A huge chunk of the khandhas (ie consciousness) makes up a part of phassa, and MN 43 assures us that perception and feelings are conjoined to consciousness.

The khandhas are still the living Arahant's experiential world, but it would be worth exploring whether the "upadana" in an Arahant's sa-upadisesa condition might actually be the "upadana" in upadanakhandha or something less radical...
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:09 am

Sylvester wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote: But the total absence of anusayas in an arahant does not logically entail the disappearance of the Aggregates.

Perhaps the freedom from saṅkhaya in relation to the Aggregates is another way of putting across the implausibility of applying "sakkaya" to the Arahant, since MN 44 posits "sakkaya" as being only applicable to the upadanakhandha. I don't think these propositions need to be taken to mean the impossibility of understanding an Arahant in terms of the Aggregates, but simply as the impossibility of an Arahant relating to the Aggregates as "self" or holding any form of mana whatsoever.

To this extent, DO is in the final leg of its unravelling in the Arahant. But even then, we cannot discount that while the Arahant is still alive, some paccayas will continue to exert their influence in being the condition for their sequels. An Arahant cannot escape "phassa" (unless he/she pops into Nirodha Sammapatti), nor can vedana be avoided as a sequel to phassa. What can be certain is that the nidana between vedana and craving is gone forever.

We may have to revisit the old and constant issue of the difference between the khandhas simpliciter and upadanakhandha.
Agreed.



But you didn't agree with ALL my propositions... :cry:
But you must smile. I agree with everything you said, which is what I have trying to say. You just said it with a great deal more economy and clarity.

Seriously, I suspect that some of the difficulties about the readings of DO will go away very quickly if it is borne in mind that DO is a detailed example of "imasmim sati, idam hoti". This being in the locative absolute, the "this" and "that" can be concurrent, or "that" can follow "this" by any amount of time.

Just because avijja as a paccaya has been destroyed does not require DO to collapse in a heap at that instant. The paccaya having 'been' can assure that its effect may manifest many, many lifetimes later (although the 3 lifetimes model seems a more popular exposition). Eg sankhara as kamma builds up a habitual structure and could be the "corresponding engagement" that determines whether or not consciousness is established when the ayatana meets an indriya. The habit might take days or lifetimes to crystallise.

The same could be said for the locative absolute formulation of "Imasmim asati, idam na hoti". With the evaporation of avijja, the unravelling of some of its effects might take some time to show up. The Arahant still carries the salayatana around and that almost always leads to various types of phassa (except in various samadhis). A huge chunk of the khandhas (ie consciousness) makes up a part of phassa, and MN 43 assures us that perception and feelings are conjoined to consciousness.
Agreed. I cannot add anything to this.

The khandhas are still the living Arahant's experiential world, but it would be worth exploring whether the "upadana" in an Arahant's sa-upadisesa condition might actually be the "upadana" in upadanakhandha or something less radical...
Interesting thought here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby piotr » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:48 am

Hi Retrofuturist,

retrofuturist wrote:For you to claim that idappaccayata was taught as a general principle, beyond that of dependent origination, you'll need to provide at least one example of it in the suttas that differs from dependent origination.


Let me stir water a bit. In SN 35.237 <iv 171-2> the Buddha says (translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi):

    “Bhikkhus, when there are hands, there is picking up and putting down. (...) When, bhikkhus, there are no hands, there is no picking up and putting down.”

    “Hatthesu, bhikkhave, sati ādānanikkhepanaṃ hoti; (...) Hatthesu, bhikkhave, asati ādānanikkhepanaṃ na hoti;”
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:59 am

piotr wrote:Hi Retrofuturist,

retrofuturist wrote:For you to claim that idappaccayata was taught as a general principle, beyond that of dependent origination, you'll need to provide at least one example of it in the suttas that differs from dependent origination.


Let me stir water a bit. In SN 35.237 <iv 171-2> the Buddha says (translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi):

    “Bhikkhus, when there are hands, there is picking up and putting down. (...) When, bhikkhus, there are no hands, there is no picking up and putting down.”

    “Hatthesu, bhikkhave, sati ādānanikkhepanaṃ hoti; (...) Hatthesu, bhikkhave, asati ādānanikkhepanaṃ na hoti;”



Ah ha! The locative absolute again!
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:16 am

Greetings Piotr,
piotr wrote:Let me stir water a bit.

Now, I'll bow to your knowledge of Pali over mine any day, but this seems to cover a fraction of the idappaccayata principle, as bolded below.

When this is, that is. From the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, that is not. From the ceasing of this, that ceases.

In other words, the required supporting notions of arising and ceasing crucial to the principle seem to be absent.

Even if one could take the leap and say it was inferred, one could also take the leap and say that it was inferred that this example pertains to nama-rupa, salayatana, phassa and vedana... therefore still being a representation of the dependent origination relationship.

If my reading is in error, I welcome your feedback.

(I do like that sutta though - it's one with a real phenomenological flavour... "No hands and no feet? Surely this man has been brutally severed" says the ontologist)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:19 am

Hello all,

For those of us non-Pali wallahs:
601 to 603
http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/grammar/chpt14.htm

with metta
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:25 am

cooran wrote:Hello all,

For those of us non-Pali wallahs:
601 to 603
http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/grammar/chpt14.htm

with metta
Chris
Shame on you. You used the word wallah.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:39 am

Hello tilt,

And the significance to you of the word 'wallah' is ......?

with metta
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:43 am

Especially for Tilt :console:

Definition of WALLAH
: a person who is associated with a particular work or who performs a specific duty or service —usually used in combination <the book wallah was an itinerant peddler — George Orwell>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wallah

with much metta and karuna,
Chris
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:Interesting thought here.



Actually Ven Nanananda's reading in one of his Nibbana Sermons, in his explanation of the Itthivutaka's Nibbanadhatu Sutta.

Might not actually be that unpalatable or heretical, since tanha/craving appears to be distinct from upadana/clinging. The universe of craving for the Arahant is exhausted (ie craving in relation to the 6 ayatanas). On the other hand, SN 12.2 defines clinging as clinging to kāmā, clinging to views, clinging to sila-vata, and clinging to self-doctrine. What It 38 (Ven N's translation) posits is that the living Arahant experiences as such -

And what, monks, is the Nibbàna element with residual clinging? Herein, monks, a monk is an arahant, with influxes extinct, one who has lived the holy life to the full, done what is to be done, laid down the burden, reached one's goal, fully destroyed the fetters of exis­tence and released with full understanding. His five sense faculties still remain and due to the fact that they are not destroyed, he experi­ences likes and dislikes, and pleasures and pains. That extirpation of lust, hate and delusion in him, that, monks, is known as the Nibbàna element with residual clinging.


I believe It 38's reference to the remainder of the panca indriya can be directly correlated to SN 12.2's kāmupādāna (clinging to kāmā).

If It 38 is not suspect and really represents the Buddha's views, and if Ven N's translation is in accord with the Buddha's views, then I will have to think twice before I allow myself to criticise a monk who chooses his morsel from the dana pool.

That being the case, it would appear that even a living Arahant is afflicted by/experiences the upadanakhanda and ergo, still suffers according to the First Noble Truth. That might explain the last para of the Silavant Sutta -

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The reference to the "pleasant abiding" typically would mean jhana, and here I suspect that the 1st Jhana's "vivicc'eva kamehi" formula indicates the temporary escape from kāmupādāna.

But aren't there other suttas that point to an Arahant going beyond clinging? Or were those suttas specifically addressing clinging in relation the khandhas? :shrug:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby piotr » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:50 am

Hi Retrofuturist,

retrofuturist wrote:Even if one could take the leap and say it was inferred, one could also take the leap and say that it was inferred that this example pertains to nama-rupa, salayatana, phassa and vedana... therefore still being a representation of the dependent origination relationship.


Could you rephrase it? I can't understand your point here.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:55 am

cooran wrote:Especially for Tilt :console:

Definition of WALLAH
: a person who is associated with a particular work or who performs a specific duty or service —usually used in combination <the book wallah was an itinerant peddler — George Orwell>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wallah

with much metta and karuna,
Chris

I got severely abused here a while ago for referring to the jhanikas as jhana-wallahs, though I would also refer to the vipassanikas as vipassana-wallahs. To me it is a harmless, if not an amusing, word. I rather like it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:01 am

Sylvester wrote: If It 38 is not suspect and really represents the Buddha's views, and if Ven N's translation is in accord with the Buddha's views, then I will have to think twice before I allow myself to criticise a monk who chooses his morsel from the dana pool.
And then, of course, there is Mara visting the arahants, which could very well be a way of talking about this sort of thing. But always the arahants and the Buddha see Mara clearly, dispelling any danger.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:04 am

Greetings Piotr,
piotr wrote:Hi Retrofuturist,

retrofuturist wrote:Even if one could take the leap and say it was inferred, one could also take the leap and say that it was inferred that this example pertains to nama-rupa, salayatana, phassa and vedana... therefore still being a representation of the dependent origination relationship.


Could you rephrase it? I can't understand your point here.

OK.

I don't see SN 35.237 as a complete form of the idappaccayata principle, because these crucial elements are omitted: "From the arising of this, that arises... From the ceasing of this, that ceases."

Despite that, I do think that SN 35.237 actually is about dependent origination, and that it covers the nidanas from nama-rupa through to vedana.

Because of a combination of both of those factors, it doesn't adequately satisfy the challenge I laid out for Tilt.

Does that make sense?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby piotr » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:11 am

Hi Retrofuturist,

retrofuturist wrote:Does that make sense?


No, it doesn't. But now I understand what you've meant, thanks. Can you tell me how does passage quoted by me “covers the nidanas from nama-rupa through to vedana”?
Last edited by piotr on Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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