Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:49 am

Greetings Tilt,

It's about contact between subject and object.

Tilt wrote:Of course there is phassa.


No.

SN 12.15 wrote:"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

a.k.a. phassanirodha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

It's about contact between subject and object.

Tilt wrote:Of course there is phassa.


No.

SN 12.15 wrote:"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

a.k.a. phassanirodha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
And if you take this literally, all that there is left is nothing. The cessation of ignorance can be taken literally, but the rest is the cessation those things conditioned by ignorance until we get to the cessation of craving. Cessation of craving and what follows is literal. The upādānakkhandha become the khandhas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19636
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:09 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:And if you take this literally, all that there is left is nothing.

Nothing rooted in avijja, anyway. (Of course I am speaking phenomenologically, not ontologically... something probably worth re-iterating at this point. Just as when a meditator enters the formless realms, their body does not turn to dust, the eye and ears of the arahant do not turn to dust either)

tiltbillings wrote:The cessation of ignorance can be taken literally, but the rest is the cessation those things conditioned by ignorance until we get to the cessation of craving. Cessation of craving and what follows is literal. The upādānakkhandha become the khandhas.

I see what you're saying, but I don't see the need to switch from one mode of interpretation to another once it hits craving. Everything beyond avijja, is formed (i.e. sankhata dhamma), so by attaining arahantship, anything formed need no longer be acknowledged. Furthermore, attempts to define what an arahant is by any formed measure are futile...

Dhp 93 wrote:He whose cankers are destroyed and who is not attached to nutriment, whose object is the Void, the Unconditioned Freedom — his path cannot be traced, like that of birds in the air.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:I see what you're saying, but I don't see the need to switch from one mode of interpretation to another once it hits craving. Everything beyond avijja, is formed (i.e. sankhata dhamma), so by attaining arahantship, anything formed need no longer be acknowledged. Furthermore, attempts to define what an arahant is by any formed measure are futile...
But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19636
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:27 am

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.

Respectfullly I disagree. The arahant is dependent on nothing. There is no such thing as "paticcasamuppada [not] conditioned by ignorance". Or if you think there is, I would appreciate any sutta references on the subject.

Ud 8.4: Nibbana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:What do you know about the physicality of the body beyond what is experienced by means of the four remaining aggregates of feeling (vedana), perception (sanna), formations (sankhara) and consciousness (vinnana)?

Nothing, that which lies beyond what is experienced by means of the aggregates is beyond "my" range. Or do you mean what I know only by means of the aggregate of form (rūpa)? However there seems to be something which appears to be much more durable in some way, almost permanent (but it's not) compared to the rest within the experience by means of the aggregates. This is probably the reason for the differentiation in "own body" and other(s) within experience. Furthermore it seems that all experience is experienced always from the same "point of view". Or in other words that experience seems to happen always in the same "place", while everything is constantly changing the "place" or the "point of view" where experience is known seem to be fixed (only for as long as there is experience). Maybe this is what is sometimes called "knower" or "the one who knows". Do you know what I mean? Guess that's going to be off topic...

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:
User avatar
acinteyyo
 
Posts: 1032
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Neuburg/Donau, Germany

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.

Respectfullly I disagree. The arahant is dependent on nothing.
Now you are the one reifying the arahant. I did not say that the arahant is dependent upon anything.

There is no such thing as "paticcasamuppada [not] conditioned by ignorance".
Says who?

Or if you think there is, I would appreciate any sutta references on the subject.
Try the most basic formulat of paticcasamuppada, "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises." It underlies everything in the Buddha's teachings.

Ud 8.4: Nibbana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress.

Metta,
Retro. :)
A text that actually, neatly makes my point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19636
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:52 am

Greetings acinteyyo,

acinteyyo wrote:Nothing, that which lies beyond what is experienced by means of the aggregates is beyond "my" range. Or do you mean what I know only by means of the aggregate of form (rūpa)? However there seems to be something which appears to be much more durable in some way, almost permanent (but it's not) compared to the rest within the experience by means of the aggregates. This is probably the reason for the differentiation in "own body" and other(s) within experience. Furthermore it seems that all experience is experienced always from the same "point of view". Or in other words that experience seems to happen always in the same "place", while everything is constantly changing the "place" or the "point of view" where experience is known seem to be fixed (only for as long as there is experience). Maybe this is what is sometimes called "knower" or "the one who knows". Do you know what I mean? Guess that's going to be off topic...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts... I think they go some way to explaining why the Buddha utilised a five aggregates schema of existence, when in theory, "rupa" could have been subsumed elsewhere under the other four. Excluding rupa would have lead to all number of accusations, such as denial of the existence of the body etc. so it would seem a good move. Anyway (believe it or not, this is leading somewhere).....

In the Majjhima Nikaya, we find a definition of nama.

MN i,9 wrote:Feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention,—this, friends, is called name (Vedanā saññā cetanā phasso manasikāro, idam vuccat'āvuso nāmam)

Is there anything in that definition that you think falls outside of the four aggregates (minus rupa) specified earlier?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby daverupa » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates)


Seems I've heard that view before...

Yamaka Sutta (SN 22.85) wrote:"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"

"Previously, my friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Dhamma, I have abandoned that evil supposition, and have broken through to the Dhamma."

"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4195
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:01 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Now you are the one reifying the arahant.

No, I'm not. I'm just saying what the Buddha said in Ud 8.4...."One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

tiltbillings wrote:I did not say that the arahant is dependent upon anything.

Yes you did.... you said "the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance." That's dependent... paticcasamuppada means dependent origination.

tiltbillings wrote:Try the most basic formulat of paticcasamuppada, "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises." It underlies everything in the Buddha's teachings.

And given the Buddha's teachings focus on the loka/sabba of conditioned existence rather than the universe, what examples could you feed through your Idappaccayata forumula that aren't dependent on avijja?

tiltbillings wrote:A text that actually, neatly makes my point.

I don't see how.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:08 am

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates)


Seems I've heard that view before...
I am not "identifying" the arahant with the khandhas, nor am I saying the arahant is different from the khandhas, but a living arahant does talk, does hear, does remember . . . .
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19636
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Nyana » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies

From a suttanta perspective I don't think that we can ever equate an arahant with the aggregates. SN 22.36: Bhikkhu Sutta:

    Venerable sir, if one has no underlying tendency towards form... feeling... recognition... fabrications... consciousness, then one is not measured (anumīyati) in accord with it. Whatever one is not measured by, that is not how one is classified (saṅkha).

An arahant is utterly free from classification/reckoning (saṅkhayavimutta) in terms of form, feeling, recognition, fabrications, and consciousness. The only classification schemes that I've ever seen in the suttas regarding an arahant are the six sense spheres and six faculties. And there isn't any specific correlation ever made in the suttas between the sense spheres and faculties on the one hand, and the aggregates on the other.

tiltbillings wrote:which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.

Paṭiccasamuppāda has to be understood in both forward and reverse sequence. That is dhamma. The forward sequence beginning with ignorance is no longer applicable when ignorance has been eliminated.

All the best,

Geoff
Nyana
 
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Now you are the one reifying the arahant.

No, I'm not.
It looked like it.

tiltbillings wrote:I did not say that the arahant is dependent upon anything.

Yes you did.... you said "the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance." That's dependent... paticcasamuppada means dependent origination.
No, I did not. The arahant remembers things? The arahant speaks? The arahant walks, talks? All of these things things are interdependently arising and falling. The arahant (or even the non-arahant) is not really any of these things. It is in the interdependently arising and falling that where the Dhamma seen. Who sees the Dhamma sees paticcasamuppada, who see paticassamuppada see the Dhamma. Who see the Dhamma sees the Buddha; who the Buddha sees the Dhamma.

tiltbillings wrote:Try the most basic formulat of paticcasamuppada, "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises." It underlies everything in the Buddha's teachings.

And given the Buddha's teachings focus on the loka/sabba of conditioned existence rather than the universe, what examples could you feed through your Idappaccayata forumula that aren't dependent on avijja?
The arahant remembering in the phone number of the plumber, or seeing a bird and remebers that it is an Indigo Bunting. The arahant that has not attained parinibbana (speaking in a conventional sense) experiences and functions through the conditionality of the mind/body process, much of which is shaped by kamma, the willed choices made.

tiltbillings wrote:A text that actually, neatly makes my point.

I don't see how.
I know. I am thinking that is because you are assuming that conditioned co-production is the ignorance formula or some such rather than an underlying principle of how the "world" works and where the truth and liberation are found.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19636
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:55 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies

From a suttanta perspective I don't think that we can ever equate an arahant with the aggregates.
I am not, but, alas, we must use language to talk about these things, which is why with quotation marks I tried to make a point about the relationship of the arahant to the khandhas.

An arahant is utterly free from classification/reckoning (saṅkhayavimutta) in terms of form, feeling, recognition, fabrications, and consciousness. The only classification schemes that I've ever seen in the suttas regarding an arahant are the six sense spheres and six faculties. And there isn't any specific correlation ever made in the suttas between the sense spheres and faculties on the one hand, and the aggregates on the other.
But arahants walk, talk, poop, and pee. They deal with sangha politics and have distinct personalities (see Mahakassapa after the death of the Buddha) and whatever else. They do this within a framework of the conditioned mind/body of which they no longer identify, which serverd as the vehicle of liberation. Outside of not being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion do the living arahants see, hear, think, remember, talk, poop, walk somehow differently?

tiltbillings wrote:which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.

Paṭiccasamuppāda has to be understood in both forward and reverse sequence. That is dhamma. The forward sequence beginning with ignorance is no longer applicable when ignorance has been eliminated.
Sure; however, the principle of conditionality conditioned co-production is what underlies the whole of the Dhamma.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19636
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:00 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:No, I did not. The arahant remembers things? The arahant speaks? The arahant walks, talks? All of these things things are interdependently arising and falling.

Only if one ignorantly reifies them as "things" (sankhata dhamma) in the first place which might, once objectified, be observed to "rise" and "fall". A moot point really, since an arahant would not falsely reify dhammas.

tiltbillings wrote:I am thinking that is because you are assuming that conditioned co-production is the ignorance formula or some such rather than an underlying principle of how the "world" works

If by "world" you mean the conventional "world", then yes, that is my position. The extension of dependent origination beyond the application of conditioned experience is a Mahayana doctrine. If you reduce dependent origination to mere "cause and effect" it's hardly "Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations."

tiltbillings wrote:...and where the truth and liberation are found.

Where truth and liberation is found is in the Buddha's teachings and the Buddha never taught of a dependent origination not conditioned by ignorance.

SN 56.11 wrote:At one time the Blessed One was staying at Kosambii in Si.msapaa Grove. Then the Blessed One, taking a few Si.msapaa leaves in his hand, said to the monks: "What do you think, monks? Which are the more numerous, the few leaves I have here in my hand, or those up in the trees of the grove?"

"Lord, the Blessed One is holding only a few leaves: those up in the trees are far more numerous."

"In the same way, monks, there are many more things that I have found out, but not revealed to you. What I have revealed to you is only a little. And why, monks, have I not revealed it?

"Because, monks, it is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or Nibbaana. That is why I have not revealed it. And what, monks, have I revealed?

"What I have revealed is: 'This is Suffering, this is the Arising of Suffering, this is the Cessation of Suffering, and this is the Path that leads to the Cessation of Suffering.' And why, monks, have I revealed it?

"Because this is related to the goal, fundamental to the holy life, conduces to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment and Nibbaana, therefore I have revealed it.

"Therefore, monks, your task is to learn: 'This is Suffering, this is the Arising of Suffering, this is the Cessation of Suffering, this is the Path that leads to the Cessation of Suffering.' That is your task."

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:10 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:No, I did not. The arahant remembers things? The arahant speaks? The arahant walks, talks? All of these things things are interdependently arising and falling.

Only if one ignorantly reifies them as "things" (sankhata dhamma) in the first place which might, once objectified, be observed to "rise" and "fall". A moot point really, since an arahant would not falsely reify dhammas.
The point here not reifying "things"; rather, it is that the arahant is dealing kamma generated conditing.

tiltbillings wrote:I am thinking that is because you are assuming that conditioned co-production is the ignorance formula or some such rather than an underlying principle of how the "world" works

If by "world" you mean the conventional "world", then yes, that is my position. The extension of dependent origination beyond the application of conditioned experience is a Mahayana doctrine. If you reduce dependent origination to mere "cause and effect" it's hardly "Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations."
I am always talking about the experienced world, and no, the teaching of the Buddha is not "mere cause and effect."

tiltbillings wrote:...and where the truth and liberation are found.

Where liberation is found is in the Buddha's teachings and the Buddha never taught of a dependent origination not conditioned by ignorance.
I have already shown you that he has.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19636
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:21 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:The point here not reifying "things"; rather, it is that the arahant is dealing kamma generated conditing.

Well given you've refused thus far to define what you mean by conditioning, I don't know what I could possibly make of that.

I am always talking about the experienced world

Yet you fathom to speak about a dependent origination other than one conditioned by ignorance?... one beyond range.

tiltbillings wrote:I have already shown you that he has.

No you've not. You've provided a definition for idappaccayata, branded it dependent origination, and then declared that dependent origination applies to everything.

For your argument to hold any water, you would want to be able to demonstrate at least one instance from the suttas where idappaccayata is used in any context other than dependent origination (or its reverse mode) founded upon ignorance. There's plenty of suttas on dependent origination - if your theory is true, it shouldn't be hard to prove.

Once you've done that you'll have shown me that the Buddha has taught such a thing - until then, you haven't.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:The point here not reifying "things"; rather, it is that the arahant is dealing kamma generated conditing.

Well given you've refused thus far to define what you mean by conditioning, I don't know what I could possibly make of that.
I have, using the basic formula given by the Buddha.


tiltbillings wrote:I have already shown you that he has.

No you've not. You've provided a definition for idappaccayata, branded it dependent origination, and then declared that dependent origination applies to everything.
And what should I make of the fact that you are unwilling to accept the fundamental statement of conditionality of the Buddha. If you want limit paticcasamuppada, then I'll go with conditionality as outlined by the Buddha. It does not matter. And what I said is that this underlies the whole of the Buddha's teaching. I do not believe I said "everything."

For your argument to hold any water, you would want to be able to demonstrate at least one instance from the suttas where idappaccayata is used in any context other than dependent origination (or its reverse mode) founded upon ignorance.

Once you've done that you'll have shown me that the Buddha has - until then you haven't.
The thing is, I already have. Also, I have shown that your attempts at dismissing vipaka for the arahant don't quite cut it, but It will be several hours befor I can get back to this in any detail.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19636
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Nyana » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:52 am

tiltbillings wrote:I tried to make a point about the relationship of the arahant to the khandhas.

Well, according to SN 22.36 there is no relationship.

tiltbillings wrote:Outside of not being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion do the living arahants see, hear, think, remember, talk, poop, walk somehow differently?

They still have eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body- and mind-faculties. But there is no specific fabrication or volitional intention towards either existence or non-existence. Thus, the aggregate scheme doesn't apply. MN 140 Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta:

    One does not form any specific fabrication or volitional intention towards either existence or non-existence (so neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā). Not forming any specific fabrication or volitional intention towards either existence or non-existence, he does not cling to anything in this world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he personally attains complete nibbāna. He discerns that, ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, done is what had to be done, there is nothing further here.’

tiltbillings wrote:Sure; however, the principle of conditionality conditioned co-production is what underlies the whole of the Dhamma.

Sure. But somewhere in the Aṅguttaranikāya there is a sutta which explains that with the remainderless passing away and cessation of ignorance there is no longer a fabricated body, voice, or mind conditioned by which pleasure or pain arise internally. My guess would be that this means that an arahant doesn't generate either kusala or akusala kamma -- all actions would then be kiriya.

At any rate, I haven't been paying attention to what it is that you guys are debating so I'll step aside.

All the best,

Geoff
Last edited by Nyana on Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nyana
 
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:57 am

Greetings Geoff,

Ñāṇa wrote:At any rate, I haven't been paying attention to what it is that you guys are debating so I'll step aside.

For someone who hasn't been paying any attention, you hit the nail right on the head.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PreviousNext

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: waryoffolly and 8 guests