Greetings acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:The point is that we can't safely say that Angulimalas intention to kill these people which lead to the act of killing has nothing to do with the very same result of drawing hate of the locals
Here we agree.
acinteyyo wrote:which would then be kamma/vipaka IMHO.
... and here we diverge. Let's say, theoretically, that Angulimala was framed... it was all a stitch-up and that he never killed anybody. People would still throw clods regardless, wouldn't they? Now, what would you attribute that clod throwing activity to? Have a good think about that, and I look forward to your answer.
acinteyyo wrote:This is at least what the Buddha tells Angulimala about it:
The fruit of the kamma [...] you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"
... and as I asked Tilt, was the Buddha using kamma in a conventional sense (i.e. doing something) or Dhammic sense (i.e. cetana), and was he using fruit in a conventional (i.e. consequence) or Dhammic sense (i.e. experienced resultant)?
Since they're the same words in either case, and the Buddha spoke using conventional and Dhammic terms at different times, who is to say for sure?
acinteyyo wrote:An experience is nāmarūpa and viññāna and although Angulimala became an arahant he's still experiencing, which is to say there is just presence of the phenomenon ('This is present'), instead of the presence (or existence) of an apparent 'subject' to whom there is present an 'object' ('I am, and this is present to [or for] me'), to say it with the words of Ven. Ñanavira. "Being" an arahant Angulimala is certainly free from suffering, the aggregates of grasping (pañc'upādānakkhandhā) are no longer applicable but the aggregates (pañcakhandhā) still are.
Agree.
acinteyyo wrote:You can say it that way but this doesn't alter the fact that Angulimala was experiencing, which is to say there was presence of the phenomenon. And I understand this as vipaka of Angulimalas kamma like the Buddha says in that particular sutta.
I don't see how mere "presence of phenomenon" is connected with kamma and/or vipaka though... perhaps your response to the aforementioned question will give me some insight into your thinking.
acinteyyo wrote:No mystic mumbo jumbo, kammic gravity vortex or anything like that, just nāmarūpa and viññāna.
Good. Though even for those who buy into the mystic mumbo jumbo, tales of kamma are still good as morality teachings or fables to encourage people to do good and avoid bad. That's one positive, even if it's an incomplete picture.
acinteyyo wrote:And I still see no reason to accept that vipaka should be only mental phenomenon.
Well you've have to take that up with ven. Nyanatiloka and the Kathavatthu. In the meantime, I'll repeat that I think the important aspect is that vipaka occurs within loka, not outside of it... and the arahant's experience is lokuttara.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."