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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:52 am
by tiltbillings
jackson wrote: I by no means intend to send this thread off track, but your response is intriguing. Could you possibly elaborate on what kind of demeanour a stream winner has?
Of the individuals that I have known who were likely ariya (having attained some degree of awakening), not one of them deliberately drew attention to themselves or their practice in terms of making their attainments, their practice, who they are a credential. There was always a humility. Even when talking about themselves or their practice, it was in terms teachings, in terms of illustrating a point. It was never in a sense of scoring a point or showing off one's brass buttons. And some of the personalities could be quite big, full of a lot humor. Also, they were not perfect, sometimes having, like any of us, odd habits or quirks, but interestingly, never slavish to them.

I don't know if that helps. It is hard to put one's finger on things such as this. We can have all sorts of expectations of how an ariya should or should not act, and we may end up disappointed, but I think I can say what I have not seen is horn tooting as a characteristic of awakening.

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:57 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:On the other hand, telling people that all they can hope for in this life is feeling a bit more peaceful, a bit less of a sense of self, and bit more confident in the Buddha's teachings, and then telling them: "by the way, that's all stream entry is, anyway", is not necessarily encouraging.
Let alone "not necessarily encouraging", it would indeed be false.

No, I'm not about misleading people as to what stream-entry is... I'm (true to form) all about pointing back towards the suttas to re-discover what stream-entry is and how the Buddha defined it before the mystification and arahantifcation of stream-entry began in earnest. To that end, the Thanissaro Bhikkhu compendiums that Bodom linked to (either here or in the other similarly named topic, I've lost track) on Access To Insight are gold. It helps strip back the (mis?)conception that "stream entry" is some kind of "magical (path or fruit) moment"... rather it is about the burdens you have been able to let go of.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:01 am
by robertk
'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, par. 5, The keyhole)
'Here, lord, robing myself in the forenoon and taking bowl and outer robe I set out for Vesali on my begging rounds. Then, lord, I saw a number of Licchavi youths in the gymnasium making practice at archery, shooting even from a distance through a very small keyhole, and splitting an arrow, shot after shot, with never a miss. And I said to myself, lord: 'Practised shots are these Licchavi youths! Well practised shots indeed are these Licchavi youths, to be able even at a distance to splinter an arrow through a very small keyhole, shot after shot, with never a miss!' '

'Now what think you, Ananda? Which is the harder, which is the harder task to compass: To shoot like that or to pierce one strand of hair, a hundred times divided, with another strand?'

'Why, lord, of course to split a hair in such a way is the harder, much the harder task.'

'Just so, Ananda, they who penetrate the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, pierce through something much harder to pierce.

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:04 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Robert,

Yet there are similar passages on the remote likelihood of simply encountering the Dhamma in this lifetime.

From that you could draw a 1:1 relationship between encountering the Dhamma and attaining stream entry. 8-)

:rofl:

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:18 am
by kirk5a
mikenz66 wrote:On the other hand, telling people that all they can hope for in this life is feeling a bit more peaceful, a bit less of a sense of self, and bit more confident in the Buddha's teachings, and then telling them: "by the way, that's all stream entry is, anyway", is not necessarily encouraging.

Unless, of course, that's all there is to it...
Ven. Thanissaro regards stream entry as one's first experience of touching the deathless.

I'm sure there are a range of reactions to that. Encouraged, discouraged, skepticism, outright denial, affirmation...

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:17 am
by tiltbillings
retrofuturist wrote: To that end, the Thanissaro Bhikkhu compendiums that Bodom linked
Is this it?:
  • 1) The sotapanna has abandoned the first three of the lower fetters: personality view, doubt, misapprehension of precepts and vows. (Ratanasutta Sn. 233)

    2) He is freed from the possibility of rebirth in the four lower realms. (Ratanasutta Sn. 234)

    3) He is incapable of concealing any bodily, verbal or mental transgression. (Ratanasutta Sn. 235)

    4) He has abandoned any lust, hate or delusion that would be strong enough to cause rebirth in the lower realms. (Abhabba Sutta AN. iii. 438)

    5) He is incapable of nine actions: treating any sankhara as permanent, treating any sankhara as pleasurable, treating any dhamma as self, killing his mother, father or an arahant, causing bleeding in a Tathagata with evil intent, splitting the Sangha, or going over to another teacher. (Bahudhatuka Sutta MN. 115)

    6) He is incapable of living without reverence for the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, and the training. Nor can he embrace any of the 62 wrong views or take an eighth birth. (Pa?hama-abhabbatthana Sutta AN. iii. 438-9)

    7) He is incapable of seeking outside the Sangha for persons worthy of gifts. (Dutiya-abhabba??hana Sutta AN. iii. 439)

    8) He cannot fall into the six wrong views that pleasure and pain are self-wrought, or wrought by another, or wrought by both oneself and another, or arise by chance without any act by self, or arise by chance without any act by another, or arise by chance without any act by either self or another. "For the one attained to right view sees well both causes and dhammas that are causally arisen." (Catuttha-abhabba??hana Sutta AN. iii. 440)

    9) He is fixed unshakeably in the True Dhamma, is incapable of backsliding (to being a worlding), his future dukkha is finite, he has attained to knowledge not common to worldlings, cause and causally arisen dhammas are seen rightly by him.
    (Anisa?sa Sutta AN. iii. 441)

    10) He possesses unshakable confidence in the Three Jewels and the unbroken virtue that is pleasing to ariyans (numerous Suttas)

Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:19 am
by Cittasanto
tiltbillings wrote:
jackson wrote: I by no means intend to send this thread off track, but your response is intriguing. Could you possibly elaborate on what kind of demeanour a stream winner has?
Of the individuals that I have known who were likely ariya (having attained some degree of awakening), not one of them deliberately drew attention to themselves or their practice in terms of making their attainments, their practice, who they are a credential. There was always a humility. Even when talking about themselves or their practice, it was in terms teachings, in terms of illustrating a point. It was never in a sense of scoring a point or showing off one's brass buttons. And some of the personalities could be quite big, full of a lot humor. Also, they were not perfect, sometimes having, like any of us, odd habits or quirks, but interestingly, never slavish to them.

I don't know if that helps. It is hard to put one's finger on things such as this. We can have all sorts of expectations of how an ariya should or should not act, and we may end up disappointed, but I think I can say what I have not seen is horn tooting as a characteristic of awakening.
I would agree that those I have met could be described in this way also.

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:20 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Tilt,

I was specifically thinking of this one (which used to be two)...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tream.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:53 pm
by daverupa
I haven't been able to find it yet, but I hope some others here will recall this...

There is a Sutta wherein the Buddha notes that while some declare their attainment by saying something such as "I have attained it", others would come to the Buddha, say a phrase of Dhamma, and depart - and that was their declaration. The Buddha, as I recall, seemed to prefer this latter approach, somewhat chiding the more overt declarers.

It's in the Majjhima Nikaya somewhere I think, but it might be a hidden prose piece somewhere in the Samyutta... anyway, I'm fairly certain it isn't online, but the overall tenor of the Sutta pretty much puts the kibosh on those who would go around saying "I am attainment X, I am attainment Y".

(The one I am trying to recall is not the Sunakkhatta Sutta, nor is it the Chabbisodhana Sutta, though both of those pertain to this topic.)

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:33 pm
by Sokehi
declaring it openly shows a definite lack of restraint, as does my post here ;)

Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:26 pm
by marc108
tiltbillings wrote:
jackson wrote: I by no means intend to send this thread off track, but your response is intriguing. Could you possibly elaborate on what kind of demeanour a stream winner has?
Of the individuals that I have known who were likely ariya (having attained some degree of awakening), not one of them deliberately drew attention to themselves or their practice in terms of making their attainments, their practice, who they are a credential. There was always a humility. Even when talking about themselves or their practice, it was in terms teachings, in terms of illustrating a point. It was never in a sense of scoring a point or showing off one's brass buttons. And some of the personalities could be quite big, full of a lot humor. Also, they were not perfect, sometimes having, like any of us, odd habits or quirks, but interestingly, never slavish to them.
i will third this. bragging or publicly claiming attainment outside of the context of teaching, to me, is pretty much is a red flag that no such attainment exists.

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:03 am
by divine
One last thing guys, one reason to practise meditation is that when you experience the big nothingness you can keep your calm instead of shitting your pants!

And do some yoga!

Thank you all, this have been a good experience for me. A wake up call to why it's important to keep this thing for myself.

:toast:

edit: And one tip more, keep in mind your intention.

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:10 am
by tiltbillings
divine wrote:One last thing guys, one reason to practise meditation is that when you experience the big nothingness you can keep your calm instead of shitting your pants!
It is not a matter of experiencing "the big nothingness." "The big nothingness" is a side trip.
A wake up call to why it's important to keep this thing for myself.
Actually, it is a wake-up call to not get caught up in one's experiences.

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:23 am
by divine
@ tiltbillings: For all I know about you on the other end of the keyboard, you are a fairly dedicated and fairly diligent guy with quite alot of experience and knowledge. You have been the number one sceptic about this claim of attainment. And that is good, sceptic's are essential in a community. But may I ask you to provide information about what kind of experiences that mimickes the stream entry? Please also say something about how this experience of no self relates to the experience of loss of doubt.

If this misunderstood experience is so common, I think it would be useful to share it on the forum, so other people can be free of their illusion. Use me as your punching bag if that makes it easier. I'll take one for the team!

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:47 am
by tiltbillings
divine wrote:@ tiltbillings: For all I know about you on the other end of the keyboard, you are a fairly dedicated and fairly diligent guy with quite alot of experience and knowledge. You have been the number one sceptic about this claim of attainment. And that is good, sceptic's are essential in a community. But may I ask you to provide information about what kind of experiences that mimickes the stream entry? Please also say something about how this experience of no self relates to the experience of loss of doubt.

If this misunderstood experience is so common, I think it would be useful to share it on the forum, so other people can be free of their illusion. Use me as your punching bag if that makes it easier. I'll take one for the team!
You come here with all this callow bravado claiming on the basis of what you read in Wikipedia that you are a stream winner, then you refuse to explain yourself, just expecting that we suck it all up. On the other hand you drop hints here and there, such as "the big nothingness." The problem is that you have shown next to no real knowledge of the Buddha's teachings, but you want me and others do the heavy lifting here in what is talked about. Good heavens, man, you are the one claiming an extraordinary accomplishment. The burden falls to you to make your case.