Page 1 of 36

How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:16 am
by m0rl0ck
This is motivated by a discussion i had in chat the other day. Some seem to hold stream entry in very high regard, almost to the point of its being out of human reach except for a very lucky few.

Going by this definition:
* Stream-enterer: The first direct insight into selflessness is often the most powerful because it's unlike anything you've ever experienced before. For a timeless moment (which may last just an instant), no one is there — that is, there's no trace of a separate self anywhere. A feeling of tremendous relief, often accompanied by joy and bliss, generally follows the experience: At last, you've had the insight you've been seeking for so long. At last, you've "entered the stream" of realization.

When you become a stream-enterer, you can never again believe that you're really a separate self that lives inside your head and looks through your eyes. Your experience forever eliminates this illusion. When you look within, you can't find a self anywhere. In everyday life, however, you may still feel like a separate somebody and may still get caught up by greed, anger, ignorance, and various other negative feelings and patterns. Fortunately, the stage of stream-enterer also brings an unshakable confidence and dedication to the Buddhist spiritual path, so you're motivated to keep deepening and refining your realization.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/r ... rvana.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


There is nothing mystical or special about this, this is an experience many people have had, its basic to being human. If you look at other traditions and religions, its interpreted differently, in zen / chan for instance, i believe it would be looked at as a first kensho, the beginning of the real work, christians would probably call it being born again. Those with no particular framework or preparation might express it in any number of ways or eventually just forget it.

Its about how you interpret the experience and follow it up that defines its value and meaning. After having had such an experience, my guess is that one must necessarily objectify the experience in order to talk about it and share it. And its all about the interpretation and follow thru, an experience like this can imo be used to inflate the ego, as in the case of cult leaders, inspire a lifes work etc or be the ground of a disciplined and thorough follow through (which is afaik unique to buddhism).

Anyway, whether you are a buddhist or not, i dont think this experience is all that special or uncommon, what do you all think?

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:20 am
by jcsuperstar
According to the Pali Commentary, six types of defilement would be abandoned by a Sotāpanna:

1.Envy
2.Jealousy
3.Hypocrisy
4.Fraud
5.Denigration
6.Domineering
it seems a rare person ideed who has given up these.

from the dhammapada

Sole dominion over the earth,
going to heaven,
lordship over all worlds:
the fruit of stream-entry
excels them.

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:20 pm
by octathlon
m0rl0ck wrote:This is motivated by a discussion i had in chat the other day. Some seem to hold stream entry in very high regard, almost to the point of its being out of human reach except for a very lucky few.

Going by this definition:
* Stream-enterer: The first direct insight into selflessness is often the most powerful because it's unlike anything you've ever experienced before. For a timeless moment (which may last just an instant), no one is there — that is, there's no trace of a separate self anywhere. A feeling of tremendous relief, often accompanied by joy and bliss, generally follows the experience: At last, you've had the insight you've been seeking for so long. At last, you've "entered the stream" of realization.

When you become a stream-enterer, you can never again believe that you're really a separate self that lives inside your head and looks through your eyes. Your experience forever eliminates this illusion. When you look within, you can't find a self anywhere. In everyday life, however, you may still feel like a separate somebody and may still get caught up by greed, anger, ignorance, and various other negative feelings and patterns. Fortunately, the stage of stream-enterer also brings an unshakable confidence and dedication to the Buddhist spiritual path, so you're motivated to keep deepening and refining your realization.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/r ... rvana.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


There is nothing mystical or special about this, this is an experience many people have had, its basic to being human. If you look at other traditions and religions, its interpreted differently, in zen / chan for instance, i believe it would be looked at as a first kensho, the beginning of the real work, christians would probably call it being born again. Those with no particular framework or preparation might express it in any number of ways or eventually just forget it.

Its about how you interpret the experience and follow it up that defines its value and meaning. After having had such an experience, my guess is that one must necessarily objectify the experience in order to talk about it and share it. And its all about the interpretation and follow thru, an experience like this can imo be used to inflate the ego, as in the case of cult leaders, inspire a lifes work etc or be the ground of a disciplined and thorough follow through (which is afaik unique to buddhism).

Anyway, whether you are a buddhist or not, i dont think this experience is all that special or uncommon, what do you all think?
I agree with you, I don't think that description is accurate. I only learned the term "stream-enterer" recently, and my understanding of what it means would require way more than just having the experience described in the first two sentences, which I agree with you is probably not that special or uncommon.

I doubt it has anything to do with the typical Christian "born again" thing, though. I think that is more of a feeling of religious euphoria rather than perception of not-self (guessing).

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:33 pm
by PeterB
I agree. I think that the timeless moment is actually quite easily accessed , but not easily sustained. And only with some difficulty does it become our default state.
This sustaining in my opinion is made more difficult by the institutional descent of what is a state of freedom into categorisation and signs indicating status. Stream winner and once returner etc language represents the institutionalisation of the Buddha Dhamma. Its essential radical liberation is rendered less scary by imagined classifications..like prize winning marrows at the local county show. With Gold or red or blue stickers.
Real stream entry imo is the experience of the nature of things which thereafter always colours our view to a greater or lesser extent.
We are not in Kansas anymore Toto....

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:17 pm
by rowyourboat
SN 13.1 PTS: S ii 133 CDB i 621
Nakhasikha Sutta: The Tip of the Fingernail
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1999–2010
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?"

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth."

"In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye." (stream entry)

Real streamentry comes after doing this (see link), not a peaceful walk in the park:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta

RYB

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:33 pm
by vesuyul
how common is stream entry?

A sotapanna has unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. If a person would come along and say there is no Buddha, Dhamma or Sangha, and threatened to kill him if he did not agree, the stream enterer will not budge...he rather die. Stream enterers are not like worldlings who are dirt cheap abundant in the triple world. Besides they are unlikely to advertise "I am a stream enterer, know this" First we must get our facts right about Sotapannas, true ariyas.....so how common are stream enterers?

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:38 pm
by PeterB
and you know this how, vesuyal ?

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:43 pm
by Nyana
PeterB wrote:This sustaining in my opinion is made more difficult by the institutional descent of what is a state of freedom into categorisation and signs indicating status. Stream winner and once returner etc language represents the institutionalisation of the Buddha Dhamma. Its essential radical liberation is rendered less scary by imagined classifications..like prize winning marrows at the local county show. With Gold or red or blue stickers.
Yes. Credentialism -- a worldly dhamma.

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:07 pm
by dhamma_spoon
jcsuperstar wrote:
According to the Pali Commentary, six types of defilement would be abandoned by a Sotāpanna:

1.Envy
2.Jealousy
3.Hypocrisy
4.Fraud
5.Denigration
6.Domineering
it seems a rare person ideed who has given up these.
Hi, Superstar -

I only have learned from the suttas that Stream-winners have eradicated three fetters : 1) 20 self-identification views, 2) doubt and uncertainty about the Dhamma, and 3) grasping at precepts & practices. How does 'abandonment of the six defilements' connect to elimination of the three fetters?
:thanks:

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:15 pm
by Shonin
I may be wrong but I suspect that stream entry was originally a fairly preliminary 'attainment' gained upon the first real insight into Anatta. In modern Theravada it seems to have been built up into something rather rare and remarkable.

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:19 pm
by Sobeh
dhamma_spoon wrote:How does 'abandonment of the six defilements' connect to elimination of the three fetters? :thanks:
It might come from the Vatthupama Sutta, but there are listed sixteen mental defilements, those six included.

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:01 pm
by PeterB
As the late Christmas Humphreys , the founder of the London Society once said as he prepared to have a discussion with a newly arrived Buddhist teacher....." Just orf to talk to this chap..see what his take is. I dare say it will be seven of this and fifteen of that...."

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:34 pm
by AdvaitaJ
The four levels of Awakening are defined by the extent to which they cut the ten fetters by which the mind binds itself to conditioned experience.

"And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters."

— AN 10.13

"In this community of monks there are monks who are arahants, whose mental fermentations are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis...

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world...

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only one more time to this world — will make an ending to stress...

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening..."

— MN 118
My opinion is that it's a matter of degree. I suspect there are quite a number of individuals who have, to varying degrees, reduced or ended the first three fetters. The difference between them and a true stream winner lies in the qualification "total ending". I doubt there are many that can reach that standard.

Regards: Jim

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:10 pm
by dhamma_spoon
AdvaitaJ wrote:
The four levels of Awakening are defined by the extent to which they cut the ten fetters by which the mind binds itself to conditioned experience.
.. .. ..
"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening..." — MN 118
My opinion is that it's a matter of degree. I suspect there are quite a number of individuals who have, to varying degrees, reduced or ended the first three fetters. The difference between them and a true stream winner lies in the qualification "total ending". I doubt there are many that can reach that standard.

Regards: Jim
I doubt that too, Jim.
Although the "total ending" of the three fetters sounds very difficult, the meditation (anupassana) for their elimination sounds easy :

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing." [MN 2]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:meditate:

Re: How common is stream entry?

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:17 pm
by Shonin
AdvaitaJ wrote:My opinion is that it's a matter of degree. I suspect there are quite a number of individuals who have, to varying degrees, reduced or ended the first three fetters. The difference between them and a true stream winner lies in the qualification "total ending". I doubt there are many that can reach that standard.
I've never come across a human being who was totally anything. If we allow that there may be some simplification/idealisation/hyperbole in these texts then this is not quite so far out. If we take it entirely literally then it would appear to be so rare than probably no one on earth would qualify, whereas the Suttas mention many people who attained this level and higher. Perhaps even the very concept of a strict deliniation between ordinary being, stream enterer, once returner, arahant etc is just a useful guideline, perhaps it's all just a matter of degree. That sounds more like the world I know. But who knows.