How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Mkoll
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Mkoll »

Mirdad wrote:A modern awakened guru came up this year with a technique for awakening / stream-entry, when he felt after his own awakening that there could be a much easier way for this experience of no-self than countless years of meditation and contemplating information which is often unspecific or misleading.
Who is this person? What is his/her book, website, or other publication?
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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Spiny Norman »

someguysomeguy wrote:Simile:
In a box having 10,000 flies only one is of white color (9,999 are Black in color). There is a small hole. Someone is asked to pick a fly. What is the probability that the fly picked will be White in color?.
But who do the black flies represent?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Alex123
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Alex123 »

nyanasuci wrote:Being a sotāpanna is rare thing nowadays.
Dear Bhante,

I wonder what this "rarity is". Being born as a human is very rare. Only 7 billion humans vs dozens of quadrillions of insects, for example. Also out of those 7 billion humans, how many are Buddhists? And out of those, how many are diligent, wise and hardworking meditators? Even if out of all of those there are "only" 100,000 sotapannas - is that a lot or a little?

What if "stream-entry" is being too deified and the bar is too high? Maybe it is not something super magical beyond what is said in the suttas? In the suttas people were becoming stream enterers or even arahants left and right.... Yet today...
"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan! Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death
sn55.24
As for arahants. Maybe there are good Thai or Burmese forest monks who live in seclusion, far from society and even other monks, who are arahants, they just don't declare it to others.
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SDC
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by SDC »

Hello, Alex. Just keep in mind this thread is quite old and it has been some time since Ven. Nyanasuci has regularly posted.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
diver110
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by diver110 »

True stream entry is rare, though more claim it than have it. In almost 30 years of practice, I have never met a lay person I felt had achieved it. A friend of mine who lived at a Theravada monastery for 9 years, said she once met one lay person who she thought achieved it, but was not sure. I know a coupe of western monks who I beleive have achieved it. My guess, among laiety 1 out of 1000, among monks, 1 out of 100.
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cjmacie
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by cjmacie »

postby Mirdad » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:33 am
"A modern awakened guru came up this year with a technique for awakening / stream-entry, ... a much easier way for this experience of no-self than countless years of meditation and contemplating information which is often unspecific or misleading."

by Mkoll » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:04 am
"Who is this person? What is his/her book, website, or other publication?"

Sound a lot like the method taut-ed at:
http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/ ... nment.html

I've read a lot of his writings, and he posts a lot (mostly self-promotion) on the DharmaOverground forum. His own (multiple) websites / blogs keep changing, like whatever method he momentarily promotes. It seems he's recently porting his stuff into Facebook. I've got (downloaded) reams of the material as available earlier but can't find it as readily now (not willing to subject to Facebook).

Without going into the details, I'm convinced what he's talking about cannot be equated with Theravada "Stream-entry" -- unless one buys into the notion that the modern Western mind can abstract out some technical definition of that as a mind-state/condition, and then replicate it. To my mind that's a sophisticated form of scientific reductionism (though a major premise in many modernist buddhist spin-off movements). He freely borrows various popular Theravadan terms in his sales pitches, which is rather transparently just to attract attention.

From his auto-biographical material, his principle lineage appears to be along the lines of Yogananda Parmahansa-type Brahmanic tradition, i.e. his original and "principle" teacher. Witness the "Baba" persona. And in his "Bhumi" scale of levels of enlightenment, the only person ranked at the top (13) is Amma/Mata Amritanandamayi (and the highest Theravadan he's "read" ranks only a 6, well below his own 8). At one point he notes that he spent time at Amma's gatherings, but was rebuffed when he sought to help in teaching (i.e. probably self-promotion); Amma apparently saw right through that.

You probably can get the picture, but can go judge for yourself. (My view is not unbiased.)
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammavaro »

Its very common, but most people don't speak about it.

I made it in my (!) first retreat.
We had not many books and dhammatalks.
We had to usa a Mantra (buddho)
During my first retreat, I had no idea about the different stages of enlightenment.

We had only one interview / week.
For 2 or 3 days I thought that I have reached fully enlightenment.
I spend years to repeat this, but it was not possible.
You enter the stream only once.

"First taste of Nibbana" was the answer of my 2. Teacher.

It's still possible. Don't believe Mara !
^^The Greatest Gift to Buddha, our Parents, our teacher..is to open the eye of dhamma^^
Disciple
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Disciple »

In this day and age I'm assuming stream entry is not common at all.
SarathW
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by SarathW »

Disciple wrote:In this day and age I'm assuming stream entry is not common at all.
Hi Deciple,
I think this day and age the most common thing is the stream entry.
Do not surprise find many Sotapanna in this forum alone not to mention about the once returners and non-returners.
I wonder whether there is lack of Arahants in this day and age.
Now I feel this doubt is due to my own lack of knowledge rather than the lack or Arahants.
When the student is ready the teacher will appear!
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by User156079 »

SarathW wrote:
Disciple wrote:In this day and age I'm assuming stream entry is not common at all.
Hi Deciple,
I think this day and age the most common thing is the stream entry.
Do not surprise find many Sotapanna in this forum alone not to mention about the once returners and non-returners.
I wonder whether there is lack of Arahants in this day and age.
Now I feel this doubt is due to my own lack of knowledge rather than the lack or Arahants.
When the student is ready the teacher will appear!
I think there is definitely a lack of higher attainments, Sakidagami or higher.

I also think this is because of the polarization in the way Theravada traditions approach higher training and variations in preliminary training. Some traditions heavily emphasize Insight and may be optimal for stream entry but only for some people. As i understood, according to Mahasi Sayadaw's Progress of Insight, the Rupa Samatha Jhanas are not a requisite for Anagamiship but many Suttas seemingly contradict this claiming Rupa Jhana is needed in any case.
Some people for whom Vipassana is optimal for Stream Entry are also turned off from what is theoretically optimal path for them because of doubt about this Method popularized by the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw.

Other traditions may emphasize Jhanas more than Insight effectively producing less Stream Enterers or take longer to do so as a result of neglecting Insight and study, however more of these Stream Enterers would go on to destroying the 5 Fetters according to the Suttas. IE MN 64
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn64

What i think is happening nowdays is that basicly we dont get much of either because of clinging to the two extremes, being uninformed and overly skeptical to other traditions instead of looking for ways to complement eachother and understanding the diffrences. I think things are seemingly getting better on this front fwiw.
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Mr Man
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Mr Man »

SarathW wrote: Do not surprise find many Sotapanna in this forum alone not to mention about the once returners and non-returners.
Hi SarathW
So you are of the opinion that many Sotapanna frequent this forum?
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Mr Man wrote: Neither do people who have been chemically castrated.
Sometimes it goes like that. I recall seeing a documentary on pedophiles once. One of the pedophiles was so fed up with his condition that he requested chemical castration, only to be dismayed that it did not lessen his desire to have sex with children.

Similarly some homosexuals who cannot find harmony with their condition opt for castration, only to find it does not make them less gay, merely castrated homosexuals.
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Mr Man
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Mr Man »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mr Man wrote: Neither do people who have been chemically castrated.
Sometimes it goes like that. I recall seeing a documentary on pedophiles once. One of the pedophiles was so fed up with his condition that he requested chemical castration, only to be dismayed that it did not lessen his desire to have sex with children.

Similarly some homosexuals who cannot find harmony with their condition opt for castration, only to find it does not make them less gay, merely castrated homosexuals.
Thanks Coëmgenu. I think you are correct. Chemical castration is not always effective.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by DNS »

Mr Man wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mr Man wrote: Neither do people who have been chemically castrated.
Sometimes it goes like that. I recall seeing a documentary on pedophiles once. One of the pedophiles was so fed up with his condition that he requested chemical castration, only to be dismayed that it did not lessen his desire to have sex with children.

Similarly some homosexuals who cannot find harmony with their condition opt for castration, only to find it does not make them less gay, merely castrated homosexuals.
Thanks Coëmgenu. I think you are correct. Chemical castration is not always effective.
I just googled it and apparently a castrated man can still have an erection, sex and low-level orgasm, although testosterone levels are much lower, it can still be done. Therefore, perhaps instead of castration, those that do those procedures (for punishment or whatever reason) should instead do the complete removal of the male organ and replace with something else for urination, something similar to gender reassignment. That would be the only way to ensure sex or rape would be impossible for that person.
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Mr Man
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Mr Man »

My "chemically castrated" comment was from a reply to Zom in 2013.

:focus:
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