the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: No rebirth

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, what about the Buddha's claims of knowing the truth of rebirth?
There's a whole thread about this elsewhere, within which I've posted. You can look there for my particular response.
I was asking you here in this context. As to the other thread, don't which one it is, so looking in it would be rather difficult.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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BlueLotus
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Re: No rebirth

Post by BlueLotus »

tiltbillings wrote: Now, since that is established, how about addressing the question: So, what about the Buddha's claims of knowing the truth of rebirth?
Is it possible that the Buddha did not know about rebirth at all? If the Buddha knew rebirth, why did he not teach it more directly with more clarity like how it happens etc. so that people like us don't have to sit and debate like this? :thinking:
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tiltbillings
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Re: No rebirth

Post by tiltbillings »

BlueLotus wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Now, since that is established, how about addressing the question: So, what about the Buddha's claims of knowing the truth of rebirth?
Is it possible that the Buddha did not know about rebirth at all? If the Buddha knew rebirth, why did he not teach it more directly with more clarity like how it happens etc. so that people like us don't have to sit and debate like this? :thinking:
It looks clear to me. What I see a lot in this thread are those who cannot accept the Buddha taught rebirth because it flies in the face of what they can accept as being true and so they go through a lot of mental gymnastics to make their point (unconvincingly).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Zom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Zom »

Wow. 128 pages :reading: :spy: :rofl:




Here are my 5 cents:

There is a rebirth.


:D
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Zom wrote:There is a rebirth.
... then there is no rebirth, then there is.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Fede
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OMG! I'm not so special!

Post by Fede »

BlueLotus wrote:......
But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this
I hate to go all "Dr. Phil" on you, but one of his fine lessons is to turn to the person paralysed by the "What if..." question, and say -
"People always ask the "What if" question - but they never answer it, or accept the obvious! So take your 'what if' question, and answer it!"

So, ok BlueLotus, Answer the question for yourself:

What IF there IS no rebirth? What IF life ends after Death?

So what?
What can you do about it?
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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manas
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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Post by manas »

BlueLotus wrote:
cooran wrote:Hello all,

Constant rebirth is scary .... this wandering-on in Samsara.
But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this
I'm going out on a limb here, and guessing that the majority of people here (and in the Buddhist world in general) have not directly seen for themselves how beings pass away and reappear according to their kamma, but rather (like myself) have faith in the Buddha's description of that, with that faith based on the fact that he seems to be right about everything else (ie, how the mind functions, how to become truly happier and at peace, etc...)

manas.

cooran, I just saw your request. sorry but I had already written this (off topic) answer...
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

retrofuturist wrote:]
... then there is no rebirth, then there is.

Metta,
Retro. :)
retrofuturist,
is this a paraphrase of a Donavan lyric?
chownah
chownah
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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Post by chownah »

BlueLotus wrote: But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this
I think that ending rebirth is the goal....isn't it?....for an arahant there is no rebirth...isn't that right? Does this frighten you?....just wondering....
chownah
daverupa
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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Post by daverupa »

chownah wrote:
BlueLotus wrote: But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this
I think that ending rebirth is the goal....isn't it?....for an arahant there is no rebirth...isn't that right? Does this frighten you?....just wondering....
chownah
Ending suffering is the goal. Saying that the goal is ending rebirth is to take one particular explication of suffering (samsara) as total when the first noble truth says a bit more on the matter.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Zom
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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Post by Zom »

Then there is no holy life, no path leading to the cessation of suffering, no Arahants who have put an end to rebirth, and no end to craving, aversion, and delusion. If life ends at death, then suffering ends at death, and there is no difference between an Arahant and an ordinary confused human being — both will attain the end of suffering at death.
:toast:
:toast:
:toast:
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:]
... then there is no rebirth, then there is.

Metta,
Retro. :)
retrofuturist,
is this a paraphrase of a Donavan lyric?
chownah
Yes, and this is a paraphrase of a Zen saying.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: No rebirth

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote: It looks clear to me. What I see a lot in this thread are those who cannot accept the Buddha taught rebirth because it flies in the face of what they can accept as being true and so they go through a lot of mental gymnastics to make their point (unconvincingly).
I guess it's kind of similar to the possibility that Buddhist monasticism is intrinsically sexist.

Where we are standing today do we need to have a good look to see if literal rebirth is still a relevant teaching in the same way that we look at continued gender discrimination as being unacceptable? Are these two things something that belong in a different age? Or are they fundamental?

:?:
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BlueLotus
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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Post by BlueLotus »

chownah wrote:
BlueLotus wrote: But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this
I think that ending rebirth is the goal....isn't it?....for an arahant there is no rebirth...isn't that right? Does this frighten you?....just wondering....
chownah
Does what frighten me? :shrug:
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BlueLotus
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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Post by BlueLotus »

Fede wrote: What IF there IS no rebirth? What IF life ends after Death?

So what?
What can you do about it?
No idea. If I knew that I wouldn't open the thread in the first place :D
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