Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

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Re: Many lifetimes of paramitta development needed to be aryan?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:47 pm

Virgo wrote:I'll just give you a link to a book. This book is essentially a collection of hundreds of quotes about the importance of the Perfections gathered from all over the Tipitaka with some commentary on each one. . . .
The Perfections are praised and mentioned again and again in the Suttas as well. It is only in Commentaries, however, that they are all listed and grouped together as one group and referred to as "the Ten Perfections". The basis for their being grouped this way is the importance placed on each one of them individually for attaining enligthenment throughout the teachings of the Buddha, including in the Suttanta. . . . .
The point is that the Buddha did not teach the perfections in the same way that they are put forth in the literature that was developed after the death of the Buddha, which is what you are referring to. There is no reason to think that this later development needs to be read backwards into the sutta literature.

These later developments reflect, in part, an aggrandisement of the Buddha and what it means to be a Buddha and how a Buddha became a Buddha -- all stuff, including the paramis as a separate list of virtues, developed after the Buddha's death.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Many lifetimes of paramitta development needed to be aryan?

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:05 pm

The reason behind this is that when there is some panna, it can condition these acts called "Perfections". When one gives out of panna, for example, there is no expectation for reward or for result from that giving arising at that moment that the intention to give arises. Likewise, something is not given out of aversion, to save oneself from harm, nor because one wants to be considered as generous, viewed as kind and so on. So every action of giving is not the Perfection of Giving, yet if giving is rooted in panna, it can be called the Perfection of Giving because it helps lead to enlightenment by not conditioning more delusion, but conditioning more panna, wisdom.

This is elucidated in places such as the Commentary called "The Dispeller of Delusion", which is the Commentary to the Book of Analysis. I recommend Ajahn Sujins book above.

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Re: Many lifetimes of paramitta development needed to be aryan?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:07 pm

Virgo wrote:The reason behind this is that when there is some panna,....
Not clear. Reason behind what?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Many lifetimes of paramitta development needed to be aryan?

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:10 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:I'll just give you a link to a book. This book is essentially a collection of hundreds of quotes about the importance of the Perfections gathered from all over the Tipitaka with some commentary on each one. . . .
The Perfections are praised and mentioned again and again in the Suttas as well. It is only in Commentaries, however, that they are all listed and grouped together as one group and referred to as "the Ten Perfections". The basis for their being grouped this way is the importance placed on each one of them individually for attaining enligthenment throughout the teachings of the Buddha, including in the Suttanta. . . . .
The point is that the Buddha did not teach the perfections in the same way that they are put forth in the literature that was developed after the death of the Buddha, which is what you are referring to. There is no reason to think that this later development needs to be read backwards into the sutta literature.

These later developments reflect, in part, an aggrandisement of the Buddha and what it means to be a Buddha and how a Buddha became a Buddha -- all stuff, including the paramis as a separate list of virtues, developed after the Buddha's death.


So tell me, did the Buddha not practice Generosity, Morality, Renunciation, Wisdom, Energy, Patience, Truthfulness, Determination, Loving-Kindness, and Equinimity (the Ten Perfections) and recommend them again and again in order to attain Enlightenment? If he did (which He did), what is the big problem?

The Commentaries are not so much seperate texts themselves, but simply Commentaries to the existing texts. If they happen to group the above listed qualities into a set of ten that they extracted from the Discourses and Teachings of the Buddha, so what? The Buddha praised these things again and again. It is easy to look into the Tipitika and see these things praised again and again. Hence, they are listed as the Ten Perfections to develop. I don't see what is so outrageous about that. Furthermore, many of these Commentaries come from very early times (there are references to some of them being recited at the First Buddhist Council)-- the time where in many groups of 500, 500 were Arahants. Do you think Arahants are incapable of teaching the Dhamma properly?


....

Sorry if not clear. The post before this one was kind of a continuation of what I had posted before it.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramitta development needed to be aryan?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:32 pm

Virgo wrote:
So tell me, did the Buddha not practice Generosity, Morality, Renunciation, Wisdom, Energy, Patience, Truthfulness, Determination, Loving-Kindness, and Equinimity (the Ten Perfections) and recommend them again and again? If he did, then what is the problem?
The Buddha never characterized these virtues as the “Ten Perfections.” The “Ten Perfections” as a separate classification list came after the death of the Buddha, as did - importantly - the particular interpretations that you are insisting must be read into the suttas. There is no reason not to assume that the Buddha would have taught that the “Ten Perfections” must be completed to the extent that the later literature insists if that is what the Buddha held to be so. He did not teach that.

I would recommend Ven Pesala’s msg above as being more in keeping with what one finds in the suttas:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3740&p=54503#p54503
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramitta development needed to be aryan?

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:38 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
So tell me, did the Buddha not practice Generosity, Morality, Renunciation, Wisdom, Energy, Patience, Truthfulness, Determination, Loving-Kindness, and Equinimity (the Ten Perfections) and recommend them again and again? If he did, then what is the problem?
The Buddha never characterized these virtues as the “Ten Perfections.” The “Ten Perfections” as a separate classification list came after the death of the Buddha, as did - importantly - the particular interpretations that you are insisting must be read into the suttas. There is no reason not to assume that the Buddha would have taught that the “Ten Perfections” must be completed to the extent that the later literature insists if that is what the Buddha held to be so. He did not teach that.

I would recommend Ven Pesala’s msg above as being more in keeping with what one finds in the suttas:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 503#p54503

So you are denying that he praised these ten individual perfections as necessary things to develop again and again in the Suttas?

Heaven forbid learned Buddhists (who come from the time when many. many practitioners were realized so who were probably realized themselves) who were codifying and preserving the Dhamma for later generations group them into a set of ten Tilt.

Perhaps from now instead of referring to the ten perfections I should just say "Buddhists should develop Generosity, Morality, Renunciation, Wisdom, Energy, Patience, Truthfulness, Determination, Loving-Kindness, and Equinimity exactly as the Buddha taught in various sutras".


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Re: Many lifetimes of paramitta development needed to be aryan?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:57 pm

Virgo wrote:So you are denying that he praised these ten individual perfections as necessary things to develop again and again in the Suttas?
Did I say that? All I said is that the later interpetations of what later become known as the "Perfections" is not what the Buddha taught as a necessary means for awakening. You certainly have not shown that to be the case.

Heaven forbid learned Buddhists (who come from the time when many. many practitioners were realized so who were probably realized themselves) who were codifying and preserving the Dhamma for later generations group them into a set of ten...
A really unclear sentence, but as you do mention the "Ten Perfections" as a specific group are a later codification, which were first applied as a group of practice to the notion of the bodhisatta as he struggled toward becoming a sammsambuddha. They were not initially applied to the arahant as a group that required complete perfection. If the Buddha thought it were necessary for the attainment of bodhi for the arahant for all the perfections to be perfected before awakening, he would have taught that in the suttas. You have not shown that he has.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramitta development needed to be aryan?

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:11 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:So you are denying that he praised these ten individual perfections as necessary things to develop again and again in the Suttas?
Did I say that? All I said is that the later interpetations of what later become known as the "Perfections" is not what the Buddha taught as a necessary means for awakening. You certainly have not shown that to be the case.

Heaven forbid learned Buddhists (who come from the time when many. many practitioners were realized so who were probably realized themselves) who were codifying and preserving the Dhamma for later generations group them into a set of ten...
A really unclear sentence, but as you do mention the "Ten Perfections" as a specific group are a later codification, which were first applied as a group of practice to the notion of the bodhisatta as he struggled toward becoming a sammsambuddha. They were not initially applied to the arahant as a group that required complete perfection. If the Buddha thought it were necessary for the attainment of bodhi for the arahant for all the perfection to be perfected before awakening, he would have taught that in the suttas. You have not shown that he has.

The Buddha praised these qualities later called the "Ten Perfections" again and again in the Suttas himself because they are integral to the development of wisdom. Wisdom is also experiential and must reach all facets of our life and being in order to have the power to root out the defilements. They are word down and rooted out slowly.

Arahants do not have to bring the Perfections to the same state of completion that the Buddha did, but they still have to practice them. They are simply integral to the Buddhist path. The "Ten Perfections" may not be mentioned, but if you look the individual qualities are mentioned again and again in the suttas. Without these Parami, the afflctions have a hold too strong on the mind. They work to weaken the afflictions, or defilements, when they are practiced together with Panna.

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Re: Many lifetimes of paramitta development needed to be aryan?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:46 pm

Virgo wrote:The Buddha praised these qualities later called the "Ten Perfections" again and again in the Suttas himself because they are integral to the development of wisdom.
Sure; however, if he had thought that the other perfections other than wisdom, insight/vipassana, needed complete perfection, he would have taught that. It would be there in the suttas to be clearly and obviously seen. All the other perfections/virtues assist in the attainment of wakening, but there is nothing in the suttas that suggest lifetime after lifetime is required to attain awakening or that the other perfections other than wisdom must absolutely perfected.

"O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge (arahantship) here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning (the Third Stage of Supramundane Fulfillment).

"O bhikkhus, let alone seven years. Should a person maintain these Four Arousings of Mindfulness, in this manner, for six years... for five years... four years... three years... two years... one year, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.

"O bhikkhus, let alone a year. Should any person maintain these Four Arousings of Mindfulness, in the manner, for seven months, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.

"O bhikkhus, let alone seven months. Should any person maintain these Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for six months... five months... four months... three months... two months... one month... half-a-month, then, by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.

"O bhikkhus, let alone half-a-month. Should any person maintain these Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for a week, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.

"Because of this was it said: 'This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness."
- MN 10
And, of course, non-returning is one step away from being an arahant, and there is not a thing in the suttas that requires lifetime after lifetime to complete the final step. There is no insistence that all the perfections must be somehow absolutely perfected.

Arahants do not have to bring the Perfections to the same state of completion that the Buddha did, but they still have to practice them.
One might be able to argue that a sammasambuddha is required to have a particular level of perfection in order to open the way, but this is not spelled out in the suttas, which means the Buddha did not teach that. This is a later doctrinal development. Also, it is worth remembering that in the suttas the bodhi of the arahant is no different from that of the Buddha, which why the epithets of buddha, tathagata, sugata, among others are also applied to the arahant by the Buddha.

e simply integral to the Buddhist path. The "Ten Perfections" may not be mentioned, but if you look the individual qualities are mentioned again and again in the suttas. Without these Parami, the afflctions have a hold too strong on the mind. They work to weaken the afflictions, or defilements, when they are practiced together with Panna.
Again, there is not a thing in the suttas that says it is lifetime after lifetime that is required for awakening or that all the perfections are required to be absolutely perfected to attain the same bodhi as that of the Buddha. The suttas present a very radical point of view that is missed when the Buddha get elevated and the arahant get lowered as a goal.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramitta development needed to be aryan?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:50 pm

Greetings,

Virgo wrote:Heaven forbid learned Buddhists (who come from the time when many. many practitioners were realized so who were probably realized themselves) who were codifying and preserving the Dhamma for later generations group them into a set of ten Tilt.


Rather, heaven forbid that "literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples" would lead one to declare that...

Virgo wrote:According to Theravada it is possible to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime, but only if you have been developing all of the perfections for many. many lifetimes already. I don't think any serious Buddhist sect ever posited otherwise.


...when the Buddha clearly stated otherwise in suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta, and never said anything about the need for "developing all of the perfections for many. many lifetimes".

Tenet systems or Buddhavacana - Which will we choose? Which is our Refuge?

:spy:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:43 pm

...when the Buddha clearly stated otherwise in suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta, and never said anything about the need for "developing all of the perfections for many. many lifetimes".


And no wonder if he didn't! Would've been a bit of a downer, wouldn't it? "Sorry guys, you've still got a few more incalculable kalpas to go before you are ready! :D "

I, for one, am happy to stay agnostic on the matter.
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:06 am

Dan74 wrote:
...when the Buddha clearly stated otherwise in suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta, and never said anything about the need for "developing all of the perfections for many. many lifetimes".


And no wonder if he didn't! Would've been a bit of a downer, wouldn't it? "Sorry guys, you've still got a few more incalculable kalpas to go before you are ready! :D "
Nonesense. That would be to say that the Buddha essentially lied.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:10 am

Let us keep in mind that the OP is: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan? .

Ariyan includes Streamwinners to arahants. There is not a thing in the suttas that would support this:
Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan? .
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:11 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
...when the Buddha clearly stated otherwise in suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta, and never said anything about the need for "developing all of the perfections for many. many lifetimes".


And no wonder if he didn't! Would've been a bit of a downer, wouldn't it? "Sorry guys, you've still got a few more incalculable kalpas to go before you are ready! :D "
Nonesense. That would be to say that the Buddha essentially lied.


none sequitur.

(I'm learning to be terse, thanks, tilt, I needed it :smile: )
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:15 am

Greetings Dan,

Dan74 wrote:And no wonder if he didn't! Would've been a bit of a downer, wouldn't it? "Sorry guys, you've still got a few more incalculable kalpas to go before you are ready! :D "


Ha, imagine that! Still, that's precisely what some people would like us to believe is the reality of the situation despite that fact the Buddha did not teach with a closed fist, and made no mention of such extended durations of training.

I don't intend to disparage Pure Land Buddhism and the like, but it's nice that there still remain alternatives to it, and that the widening differential between Buddha and Arahant that developed in Later Buddhism has yet to subsume the potential for enlightenment in this lifetime, which is a prevalent theme throughout the Pali Canon, particularly in phrases such as "visible in the here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves" (e.g. in AN 6.47).

The need to bring future lives into the equation as a requisite part of practice also introduces a level of belief in future lives and in these elaborate unverifiable tenet systems... beliefs which are not "visible in the here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves".

Scholastic papanca might seem harmless in and of itself, but when it shifts the entire alignment of the Dhamma away from Dhamma-Vinaya rather than bring clarity to it, there is cause for concern. As I take refuge in the Buddha, I have no qualms in preserving the Four Great References, as per his instructions.

Thinking and believing that there are many kappas of time still remaing regardless of what you do in this life, is a major disincentive to practice and reduces the urgent need to cultivate wisdom, here and now. The Buddha spoke of urgency like this...

AN 8.74 wrote:Just as a man whose turban or hair is on fire will, to extinguish the fire, with strong resolve, apply all his effort, vigor and exertion, (together with) mindfulness and clear comprehension; even so should that monk resolutely apply all his effort, vigor and exertion, (together with) mindfulness and clear comprehension for discarding his evil and unwholesome qualities."


If it's going to take several kappa to achieve, what's an extra lifetime, eh?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:21 am

Dan74 wrote:
none sequitur.

(I'm learning to be terse, thanks, tilt, I needed it )
Except you need to spell non sequitur correctly.

No, it is not a non sequitur. You claim that the school you follow awakening can happen in one's present life. The Buddha claimed nothing different.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
none sequitur.

(I'm learning to be terse, thanks, tilt, I needed it )
Except you need to spell non sequitur correctly.

No, it is not a non sequitur. You claim that the school you follow awakening can happen in one's present life. The Buddha claimed nothing different.


Nonesense! ;) (it's always easier to pick up others spelling mistakes, isn't it?) http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3740&start=40#p54588

I am very wary of making claims about any school (except Dan's own brand of heresy), but this is so according to some prominent teachers at least. Then again the school that I follow uses skillful means, so you can't really trust them! :jumping:

Seriously though, it seems to me that "can happen" is hypothetical, not a statements of fact. Obviously didn't happen for many many lifetimes! :tantrum:
retrofuturist wrote:
Thinking and believing that there are many kappas of time still remaing regardless of what you do in this life, is a major disincentive to practice and reduces the urgent need to cultivate wisdom, here and now. The Buddha spoke of urgency like this...

AN 8.74 wrote:Just as a man whose turban or hair is on fire will, to extinguish the fire, with strong resolve, apply all his effort, vigor and exertion, (together with) mindfulness and clear comprehension; even so should that monk resolutely apply all his effort, vigor and exertion, (together with) mindfulness and clear comprehension for discarding his evil and unwholesome qualities."


If it's going to take several kappa to achieve, what's an extra lifetime, eh?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Actually my approach is similar, but I also know that different things work for different people. So for some believing in many more transmigrations and possibly hells, may spur them to practice extremely hard.

Our semester has just started and for some students being ambitious and setting high goals may work well but others become conceited and arrogant and dream of their achievements rather than concentrating on the task at hand. While for others, a humble lowly approach ("I am not very smart, so I've got to work bloody hard") works miracles.

:shrug:
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:14 am

Greetings,

More on the attainability of arahantship, here-and-now, without countless kappa or parami cultivation... this time from the autobiographical...

MN 26: Ariyapariyesana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'They were very helpful to me, the group of five monks who attended to me when I was resolute in exertion. What if I were to teach them the Dhamma first?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Where are the group of five monks staying now?' And with the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human, I saw that they were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana.

......

"Then, wandering by stages, I arrived at Varanasi, at the Deer Park in Isipatana, to where the group of five monks were staying. From afar they saw me coming and, on seeing me, made a pact with one another, (saying,) 'Friends, here comes Gotama the contemplative: living luxuriously, straying from his exertion, backsliding into abundance. He doesn't deserve to be bowed down to, to be greeted by standing up, or to have his robe & bowl received. Still, a seat should be set out; if he wants to, he can sit down.' But as I approached, they were unable to keep to their pact. One, standing up to greet me, received my robe & bowl. Another spread out a seat. Another set out water for washing my feet. However, they addressed me by name and as 'friend.'

"So I said to them, 'Don't address the Tathagata by name and as "friend." The Tathagata, friends, is a worthy one, rightly self-awakened. Lend ear, friends: the Deathless has been attained. I will instruct you. I will teach you the Dhamma. Practicing as instructed, you will in no long time reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now.'

......

"'The Tathagata, monks, is not living luxuriously, has not strayed from his exertion, has not backslid into abundance. The Tathagata, friends, is a worthy one, rightly self-awakened. Lend ear, friends: the Deathless has been attained. I will instruct you. I will teach you the Dhamma. Practicing as instructed, you will in no long time reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now.'

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:15 am

Dan74 wrote:
I am very wary of making claims about any school (except Dan's own brand of heresy), but this is so according to some prominent teachers at least. Then again the school that I follow uses skillful means, so you can't really trust them!
Skillful means. Yes, if one follows the Lotus Sutra Sutra, the "Buddha" lies to save people. You are right, can't trust 'em.

The question is, while it may take a very, very long time to become a sammasambuddha, this is not claimed of the arahant. What seems to be going in this thread is an attempt at reading Mahayana tenet system stuff into the Theravada, and such a reading is hard to take seriously, other than it is a distortion of what the Buddha taught and what the Theravada teaches.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:25 am

tiltbillings wrote:What seems to be going in this thread is an attempt at reading Mahayana tenet system stuff into the Theravada


Is that what's going on? :spy:

As usual I missed the whole thing!

What I thought was going on is an exchange of ideas and knowledge between kalyana-mitras...
_/|\_
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