Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings David,

As usual, I must have been relying on Sutta sources instead of later hagiography.
John T. Bullitt wrote:DN 14 and DN 32 mention six previous Buddhas: Vipassi, Sikhi, Vessabhu, Kakusandha, Konagamana, and Kassapa. MN 116 includes a long list of past paccekabuddhas.
Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... /bfaq.html
David wrote:No first beginning.
No first beginning of anything, or no first beginning of Buddhas?

Surely there was ignorance, and then there was the 1st Buddha or Paccekabuddha... unless time is circular?

See? A veritable can of worms.

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by DNS »

retrofuturist wrote:
David wrote:No first beginning.
No first beginning of anything, or no first beginning of Buddhas?

Surely there was ignorance, and then there was the 1st Buddha or Paccekabuddha... unless time is circular?

See? A veritable can of worms.
:D

Hi retro,

Yes, definitely we are getting to a can of worms and very close to the imponderables. The Buddha did say that "a first beginning is unknowable" (Samyutta Nikaya 15.1-2) but does that mean there was none or just that it is unknowable? I guess we'll have to wait for enlightenment for that one.

My understanding from reading the Buddhavamsa is that the first in the list of 28 made his resolve (for the sake of argument here) during a previous world cycle, perhaps a different world system.
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by BlackBird »

retrofuturist wrote:unless time is circular?
Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings David,
David N. Snyder wrote:My understanding from reading the Buddhavamsa is that the first in the list of 28 made his resolve (for the sake of argument here) during a previous world cycle, perhaps a different world system.
More infinite regress! :D

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by catmoon »

Ok, so I've managed a human rebirth, with a reasonably sharp mind, I have encountered the Dharma and learned some of it, and even applied some of it.

Now, you are saying I've been at it HOW long??
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Blackbird,
BlackBird wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:unless time is circular?
Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?

metta
Jack
Was the Buddha already a Buddha before becoming the Buddha?

I feel like my head is about the explode in a fiery ball of Mahayana.

:jumping:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Catmoon,
catmoon wrote:Ok, so I've managed a human rebirth, with a reasonably sharp mind, I have encountered the Dharma and learned some of it, and even applied some of it.

Now, you are saying I've been at it HOW long??
... and how long have you got to go?!! Cor blimey.

With that many, many, many years supposedly involved, surely it wouldn't hurt to spend this lifetime praying to God for salvation? Perhaps we should hedge edge our bets and invest one measly lifetime in theistic religion? Each scheme seems equally unproveable to me, and God's offering is much quicker. I've even heard that in some religions, suicide bombers are offered a pretty sweet deal in heaven, complete with a harem of ever-so-lovely nymphs?

Now where's that can of worms, again?

:rofl:

Luckily the Buddha did not teach like that.

Perfectly formulated is this Buddha-Dhamma, visible right here and now, immediately effective, timeless, inviting each & everyone to come and see for themselves, inspect, examine and verify. Leading each and everyone through progress towards perfection. Directly observable, experiencable
and realizable by each intelligence...

The Buddha is cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

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Those who are filled with smiles and laughter, will perfect the virtues [sila]. That is smiling wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will also attain perfect concentration and wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will attain the path and the direct knowledges, and they will quickly realize the ultimate meaning, nibbana. Path of Discrimination, Patisambhidadamagga p. 372, para XXI 17 in Nanamoli's translation. This abbreviated translation is by Kåre.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by Ben »

retrofuturist wrote:Perfectly formulated is this Buddha-Dhamma, visible right here and now, immediately effective, timeless, inviting each & everyone to come and see for themselves, inspect, examine and verify. Leading each and everyone through progress towards perfection. Directly observable, experiencable and realizable by each intelligence...

The Buddha is cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)

SADHU! SADHU! SADHU!
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- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by catmoon »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Catmoon,


With that many, many, many years supposedly involved, surely it wouldn't hurt to spend this lifetime praying to God for salvation? Perhaps we should hedge edge our bets and invest one measly lifetime in theistic religion? Each scheme seems equally unproveable to me, and God's offering is much quicker. :rofl:

Luckily the Buddha did not teach like that.

Retro. :)
Funny you should mention that, because I happen to have that one covered. Some decades ago I found Jesus, got baptised (dunked, not sprinkled) and went on to some strange spiritual experiences and even wound up teaching Sunday School. I never really had a beef with God, but the middle management, hoo boy....
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by BlackBird »

retrofuturist wrote: I feel like my head is about the explode in a fiery ball of Mahayana.
Hi Retro

What's Mahayana about 'without discernible beginning'?
Bhikkhus, this samsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving.
- SN 15.1
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:the meaning is that it is without a delimiting first or last point. Samsara is the uninterruptedly occurring succession of the aggregates.
- Note 254 from Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Samyutta Nikaya.

Sounds to me a lot like going around in circles.

metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by catmoon »

What Jack said. "A beginning is not seen" - surely that's from early writings? Isn't it?
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Blackbird (and Catmoon),
BlackBird wrote:What's Mahayana about 'without discernible beginning'?
Sure, that's Theravadin! That's not the problem.

It's the notion of the Buddha being a Buddha before he "manifested" as the Buddha 2500 years ago which is Mahayana... and if time is circular (to which you said "Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?"), then that's what you're logically committed to.

In other words, if Gotama became Buddha, then went around the "circle of time" only to come back as an unenlightened Gotama, then it makes a mockery of what the Buddha defined as Buddhahood or arahanthood, doesn't it... because arahanthood was lost along the way.

See... a can of worms. :D

(nice to see my Philosophy major has some use, if only to demonstrate the pointlessness of conceptual proliferation :tongue: )

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by BlackBird »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Blackbird (and Catmoon),
BlackBird wrote:What's Mahayana about 'without discernible beginning'?
Sure, that's Theravadin! That's not the problem.

It's the notion of the Buddha being a Buddha before he "manifested" as the Buddha 2500 years ago which is Mahayana... and if time is circular (to which you said "Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?"), then that's what you're logically committed to.
Sorry Retro, that's not what I was signing up for, nor do feel particularly committed :lol: This probably arose out of a misinterpretation on my behalf over what "circular time" meant.

metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Jack,

Nice to see you not signing up for that which cannot in any way be verified and tested.

;)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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