Is bodily pain also dukkha?

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oak1
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Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by oak1 »

I guess not since the Buddha experienced back pain after he was enlightened, but would like some affirmation.

:anjali:
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Twilight
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by Twilight »

It is suffering caused by past kamma. (that caused the present day body to exist) What a Buddha is free from is mental suffering. He described this as been shot by an arrow (physical suffering) and then been shot again by another arrow (mental suffering). And an arahant is not shot again by the second arrow.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
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CecilN
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by CecilN »

oak1 wrote:I guess not since the Buddha experienced back pain after he was enlightened, but would like some affirmation.
The word 'dukkha' is used in at least three ways:

1. Dukkha-vedana (painful/unpleasant feelings).

2. Characteristic of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha-lakkhana) due to the characteristic of impermanence

3. Suffering of attachment/proliferating (upadana-dukkha/sankhara-dukkha), subject of the 1st noble truth.

To avoid doubt, the term 'dukkha-vedana' is never translated as 'suffering feelings'. It is 'painful' or 'unpleasant feelings'. There are countless suttas stating an arahant still experiences dukkha-vedana.

A Buddha experiences the first two kinds of dukkha (which are not 'suffering') but does not experience the 3rd kind of dukkha (which is 'suffering').
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samseva
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by samseva »

'Dukkha' is represented in mainly two ways, dukkha as pain and dukkha as the 2nd characteristic (tilakkhaṇa). Being that dukkha is a Characteristic of Existence which encompasses all formations, everything is dukkha (painful or unsatisfactory)—even pleasent feelings as they give rise to dukkha once they cease. So, bodily pain does have the characteristic of dukkha (painful, unsatisfactory).
dukkhatā (abstr. noun fr. dukkha): ‘the state of suffering’, painfulness, unpleasantness, the unsatisfactoriness of existence. “There are three kinds of suffering: (1) suffering as pain (dukkha-dukkhatā), (2) the suffering inherent in the formations (sankhāra-dukkhatā), (3) the suffering in change (vipariṇāma-dukkhatā)” (S. XLV, 165; D. 33).
(1) is the bodily or mental feeling of pain as actually felt. (2) refers to the oppressive nature of all formations of existence (i.e. all conditioned phenomena), due to their continual arising and passing away; this includes also experiences associated with neutral feeling. (3) refers to bodily and mental pleasant feelings, “because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change” (Vis.M. XIV, 34f).
With that said, there is also 'dukkha' as painful bodily feeling, and 'dukkha' as painful mental feeling ('dukkha' and 'domanassa', or 'kāyikā dukkhā vedanā' and 'cetasikā dukkhā vedanā', to be more exact). These are disctinct, and one does not necessarily entail the other, since like described in the Sallatha Sutta, one can experience bodily pain, but not create mental pain for oneself.
But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only.
The Sallatha Sutta is one of the most useful and practical Suttas that I know of. It a good one to keep in mind. :smile:
chownah
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by chownah »

Maybe it would help if people stopped objectifying dukkha. Stopped saying dukka is this or dukkha is that or this is dukkha or that is dukkha.....because to think this way is just the outcome of investing in the delusional self. Maybe it is better to think of dukkha as a general description of existence....the unsatisfactoriness of existence rather than a bundle of instances which we collect under the heading of "dukkha". Seen in this way it is easy to see how pleasant things keep seducing us into the delusional world which will never be satisfactory and so will always be "dukkha". Seen in this way it is not the pleasant thing which is itself (does it even have a self?) dukkha but dukkha is the kind of existence we have when we are attached to those pleasant things.

Seen this way it is clear that while the buddha had bodily pains he was immune from falling into the trap of the delusional self and so his existence was not unsatisfactory...not dukkha.
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oak1
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by oak1 »

Thank you very much for your interesting replies.

Would I then be correct to state that a Buddha ceases to experience the dukkha of impermanence and the dukkha of the body upon death? And then, a bit of an odd question perhaps, why would he not commit suicide in order to get rid of those two dukkhas? I guess it is because of having realized selflessness or because of a compassion towards those around him that would suffer over his it.

:anjali:
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samseva
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by samseva »

oak1 wrote:Thank you very much for your interesting replies.

Would I then be correct to state that a Buddha ceases to experience the dukkha of impermanence and the dukkha of the body upon death? And then, a bit of an odd question perhaps, why would he not commit suicide in order to get rid of those two dukkhas? I guess it is because of having realized selflessness or because of a compassion towards those around him that would suffer over his it.

:anjali:
While alive and after having reached Enlightenment, the Buddha still experienced bodily pain. However, there was no more mental pain for him.

After having reached Parinibbāna—the breakup of the body of an Arahant—the Buddha, as a mental and physical being, ceased to exist. There are no rebirths for an Arahant; it is the stilling of all formations.

The Buddha didn't commit suicide because suicide is a form of craving (taṇhā). More precisely, it is vibhava-taṇhā, which is craving for non-existence (craving to die, craving for a feeling to not exist or resisting a feeling, etc.).
justindesilva
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by justindesilva »

May I first mention that any feeling temporary is dukka.
Then grief despair lamentation and suffering from physical and mental feelings is also dukka. Why?
Because it is the other end of happiness arising from conditions of salayatana or six senses. Disintegration of the fine effects of salayatana , which is also disintegration of apo tejo vayo patavi and akasa dhatu cause mental feelings amounting to bodily pain and mental suffering.
But the conditions that such disintegration is caused only by karma is not true as is also pointed out by lord budda. Panca niyama darma also conditions disintegration of the panca maha buta or apo tejo vayo patavi and akasa.
Hence the bodily pain of Lord budda can be due to utu niyama or weather conditions .
However as pain arises from disintegration of maha buta and is conditioned by arising of vingnana it is dukka.
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BlackBird
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by BlackBird »

In the sense of the Khandhas - that pain is a feeling? No. Pain falls under perception, feeling is your reaction to that sensation which is either Dukkha (unpleasant), Sukha (pleasant) or Adhukkham-asukha (neither pleasant or unpleasant - Neutral)

If you were to talk of the experience of pain (which is inextricably bound up with feeling) then yes bodily pain is dukkha.

Be well
Jack
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SarathW
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by SarathW »

The way I understand Buddha attained Dukkha Nirodha not the pain Norodha.
Dukkha means the second arrow that is the result of unwholesome factors.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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samseva
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by samseva »

BlackBird wrote:In the sense of the Khandhas - that pain is a feeling? No. Pain falls under perception, feeling is your reaction to that sensation which is either Dukkha (unpleasant), Sukha (pleasant) or Adhukkham-asukha (neither pleasant or unpleasant - Neutral)

If you were to talk of the experience of pain (which is inextricably bound up with feeling) then yes bodily pain is dukkha.

Be well
Jack
Pain—bodily or mental—doesn't fall under perception, it falls under the feeling aggregate. It would not be classed as perception, as perception is just that—perception of sounds, tastes, bodily sensations, etc. The painful or unpleasent aspect of some bodily sensations are from the feeling aggregate as they are closely intertwined.
Whatever, O monks, there exists of feeling, of perception and of mental formations, these things are associated, not dissociated, and it is impossible to separate one from the other and show their difference. — M. 43
'Feeling', in the more general and Western form, could also fall under the mental-formations group (sankhāra-kkhandha). Such as anger, sadness, hate, disgust, all being variations of mental formations or defilements.
II. Feeling Group
(vedanā-kkhandha)
All feelings may, according to their nature, be classified as 5 kinds:

bodily agreeable feeling : sukha = kāyikā sukhā vedanā
bodily painful feeling : dukkha = kāyikā dukkhā vedanā
mentally agreeable feeling : somanassa= cetasikā sukhā vedanā
mentally painful feeling : domanassa = cetasikā dukkhā vedanā
indifferent feeling : upekkhā = adukkha-m-asukhā vedanā
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oak1
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by oak1 »

justindesilva wrote:May I first mention that any feeling temporary is dukka.
Then grief despair lamentation and suffering from physical and mental feelings is also dukka. Why?
Because it is the other end of happiness arising from conditions of salayatana or six senses. Disintegration of the fine effects of salayatana , which is also disintegration of apo tejo vayo patavi and akasa dhatu cause mental feelings amounting to bodily pain and mental suffering.
But the conditions that such disintegration is caused only by karma is not true as is also pointed out by lord budda. Panca niyama darma also conditions disintegration of the panca maha buta or apo tejo vayo patavi and akasa.
Hence the bodily pain of Lord budda can be due to utu niyama or weather conditions .
However as pain arises from disintegration of maha buta and is conditioned by arising of vingnana it is dukka.
Wow, thank you very much. Would you mind translating the terms you used; I am afraid I am not that well know with (Pali?).
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mjaviem
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

What do you understand by "bodily pain"? What do you understand by "experiencing"? What by "feeling", "perceiving"? What by "dukkha"?

Feeling is how one gets affected upon contact, this could be pleasantly, unpleasantly, or one could be unsure whether affected pleasantly or unpleasantly. Perception is classifying, regarding, recognizing something (what t is, what it is called, if it is tall or short, red or blue).

Dukkha in short are the five aggregates subject to clinging.

When there is bodily pain, such as when stepping on a spike, there is contact, there is body, the spike, and cognition of it, thus contact. When there is contact there is feeling, in this case an unpleasant one if it were to be felt as unpleasant as I'm sure it will. There is also perception, for example the perception of a small spike that should not be placed there. I call this experience. There is body and a tactile object, there's cognition, there's affection, there's regarding and classifying. All these four aggregates subject to clinging and also the concoctions that also come with contact are dukkha. Why are they dukkha? Because there is craving. Worldlings crave sensual pleasures, they desire pleasant experiences, they seek delight and run away from pain so they attach, they attach to whatever can be attached to, be it feeling or any of the other aggregates subject to clinging. Craving is the way leading to feeling, the wrong way.

But arahants awaken to understanding dukha, how it originates and ceases, they found the way to its cessation. They can't possibly attach to anything. There cannot be feeling for them because they are extinguished, without craving they are not, feeling is not, experience does not come to be. There is no me and the world. There's only peace. Back pain does not come to be, there's only a body in pain. No me.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
pegembara
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by pegembara »

oak1 wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:48 pm I guess not since the Buddha experienced back pain after he was enlightened, but would like some affirmation.

:anjali:
Being hit by one arrow is still painful but at least there is no mental anguish of unhelpful questions like-

Why did it happen to me?
If only ...
Why me?
Am I going to die or be crippled?

Also, it doesn't mean leaving the arrow in!
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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mjaviem
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Re: Is bodily pain also dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

pegembara wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:02 am Being hit by one arrow is still painful but at least ...
True for those in any of the three realms and not for those who went extinguishment.

They are no more. There's no dukkha of craving, no dukkha of conditioned things. No suffering, no world coming into existence. Only things the way they are, only body, only feeling, no conceiving.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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