No Creator in Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby SarathW » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:46 pm

Basically Buddhism teaches spontaneous generation out of nowhere, with matter itself even popping into existence from nowhere.


Isn't fire arising from nowhere?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Mkoll
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby Mkoll » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:52 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:
Mkoll wrote:I don't think you understand Theravada Buddhist practice. Because if you did, you would understand the irrelevance of those speculations to it.


On the contrary, with respect to its philosophical underpinnings or lack thereof, I understand its a practice of cognitive dissonance and denial of logic and reality.

If that is how you see Buddhist practitioners, why are you here? Please be honest. If you are here just to troll and disagree with people, as I suspect, be upfront about it. Clearly, you think we are all fools...
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

SarathW
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby SarathW » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:57 pm

why are you here? Please be honest


I don't think this is an answer to his question.
This is a place we have free speech.
Anybody can ask any question subject to moderation.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

davidbrainerd
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby davidbrainerd » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:11 am

SarathW wrote:
Basically Buddhism teaches spontaneous generation out of nowhere, with matter itself even popping into existence from nowhere.


Isn't fire arising from nowhere?


No. Because it arises from the agitation of substances that already exist.

SarathW
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby SarathW » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:21 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
SarathW wrote:
Basically Buddhism teaches spontaneous generation out of nowhere, with matter itself even popping into existence from nowhere.


Isn't fire arising from nowhere?


No. Because it arises from the agitation of substances that already exist.


But where was fire?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

paul
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby paul » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:26 am

Only those things connected with the goal:

Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the simsapa (Dalbergia sisoo) forest. Then, picking up a few simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the simsapa forest?"

"The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the simsapa forest are more numerous."

"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them.

"And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" --SN 56:31
Last edited by paul on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

davidbrainerd
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby davidbrainerd » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:34 am

SarathW wrote:
But where was fire?


In the molecules of the previous substance. A transformation of form occurs, not the popping of something previously non-existent into existence.

SarathW
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby SarathW » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:38 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
SarathW wrote:
But where was fire?


In the molecules of the previous substance. A transformation of form occurs, not the popping of something previously non-existent into existence.

So what you are saying is, when someone claps the sound was stored in the palms?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

davidbrainerd
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby davidbrainerd » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:43 am

SarathW wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:
SarathW wrote:
But where was fire?


In the molecules of the previous substance. A transformation of form occurs, not the popping of something previously non-existent into existence.

So what you are saying is, when someone claps the sound was stored in the palms?


Sound isn't a "thing" in the same way, but yes, the kinetic energy that makes the wave in the medium was there already.

SarathW
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby SarathW » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:46 am

[/quote]

In the molecules of the previous substance. A transformation of form occurs, not the popping of something previously non-existent into existence.[/quote]
So what you are saying is, when someone claps the sound was stored in the palms?[/quote]

Sound isn't a "thing" in the same way, but yes, the kinetic energy that makes the wave in the medium was there already.[/quote]

So you agree that wave is dependently originated?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

davidbrainerd
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby davidbrainerd » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:18 am

SarathW wrote:So you agree that wave is dependently originated?


Dependent origination is not really some awesome amazing super wow how did he figure that out kind of truth. Its common sense and basically duh. Stuff happens on the basis of dependencies, that's obvious. So yes I agree. What I disagree with is how so many interpret dependent origination as MAGIC that works WITHOUT DEPENDENCIES.

Let me try and explain what I mean by people thinking that dependent origination works as magic without dependencies. If I have two hands and air, I have dependencies, right? So dependent on the two hands coming together, and displacing the air, I get a soundwave arising. Ok, makes sense, because there were dependencies. Ok, now, I have nothing, absolutely nothing, nothing at all, and the universe arises....how the hello are you gonna call that "dependent" origination? Where's the dependency?

SarathW
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby SarathW » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:41 am

absolutely nothing, nothing at all

According to Buddhist teaching nothingness also a thing.
So nothingness also dependently arise.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Coëmgenu
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby Coëmgenu » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:59 am

SarathW wrote:
absolutely nothing, nothing at all

According to Buddhist teaching nothingness also a thing.
So nothingness also dependently arise.
Are you sure nothingness is considered a thing?
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

CecilN
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby CecilN » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:15 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Are you sure nothingness is considered a thing?

Nothingness is a perception & also an object of (immaterial/formless) becoming.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing'... MN 111

And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming. SN 12.2

SarathW
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby SarathW » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:28 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
SarathW wrote:
absolutely nothing, nothing at all

According to Buddhist teaching nothingness also a thing.
So nothingness also dependently arise.
Are you sure nothingness is considered a thing?

I am talking about Nothingness.
It appears the idea of the nothingness is a thing created by the mind.
==========

There is no specific entity in anything. That is emptiness. That is the nothingness. That nothingness is also experienced in meditation. It is empty, it is devoid of a specific person, devoid of a specific thing, devoid of anything which makes it permanent, devoid of anything which even makes it important. The whole thing is in flux. So the emptiness is that. And the emptiness is to be seen everywhere; to be seen in oneself. And that is what is called anatta, non-self. Empty of an entity. There is nobody there. It is all imagination. At first that feels very insecure.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl095.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

davidbrainerd
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby davidbrainerd » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:32 am

SarathW wrote:There is no specific entity in anything. That is emptiness. That is the nothingness. That nothingness is also experienced in meditation. It is empty, it is devoid of a specific person, devoid of a specific thing, devoid of anything which makes it permanent, devoid of anything which even makes it important. The whole thing is in flux. So the emptiness is that. And the emptiness is to be seen everywhere; to be seen in oneself. And that is what is called anatta, non-self. Empty of an entity. There is nobody there. It is all imagination. At first that feels very insecure.


So you've got a permanent entity that always existed, called Nothingness, that temporarily manifests itself as other things, and those manifestations are impermanent, and whatever part of Nothingness was radiated out of the absolute infinite blob of Nothingness, gets absorbed back into Nothingness, in order to be manifested out again and again and again forever. Just replace the word "Nothingness" with "Brahaman" and that's Vedanta. You've taken anatta 360 degrees back to Vedanta. (Otherwise, you'd have to admit that Nothingness is simply nothing and that nothing can arise out of nothing because nothing is nothing. But then you'd have to admit that dependent origination is not magic that creates things ex nihilo and you can't do that.)

SarathW
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby SarathW » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:36 am

Thanks David B
Now what is the problem we try to solve here in this forum and what is your answer?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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ganegaar
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby ganegaar » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:24 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
On the contrary, with respect to its philosophical underpinnings or lack thereof, I understand its a practice of cognitive dissonance and denial of logic and reality.


With due respect, whatever you intend to mean by above, you should actually know by now that "Buddhism as a practice", is a set of teachings (called Dhamma) that one must follow, and see the results for themselves.
The people who follow the teachings, do experience the benefits, here in this world itself (no waiting for a judgement day!) people who do not follow (but just use the teachings for intelectual amuzement) never knows!.

The "Paticcasamuppada" (translated as dependant-origination) is a core concept, which if understood correctly (not by intellectual reasoning, but by direct experience) one will attain nirvana, and having understood it, would rather not argue what it is, but most probably encourage the others to follow the teachings!.
If you are not clear of difference between intellectual reasoning vs direct experience, a good example is, "touching a hot iron" - you can try that intellectually, or with direct experience!.

The God is irrelevant to this practice, how we were created is irrelevant to this practice!. A "judgement day" is irrelevant to this practice (if a judgement day comes, God will have to judge all true Buddhists so highly, but if he still sends Buddhists to hell for non-belief in him, I personally prefer to be in hell than in heven with jihadists and crusaders!).
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Sprouticus
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby Sprouticus » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:00 am

SDC wrote:Always been a bit of hoopla around this verse as being one of the more explicit references to a creator:

Dhp 153-154 wrote:Through many a birth in samsara have I wandered in vain, seeking the builder of this house (of life). Repeated birth is indeed suffering!

O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.


My take on this section, a section I am particularly fond of, is that the house-builder is craving/grasping/ingnorance. A creator reference never occurred to me. That's very interesting.
Namo buddhaya

SarathW
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Re: No Creator in Buddhism

Postby SarathW » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:20 am

My take on this section, a section I am particularly fond of, is that the house-builder is craving/grasping/ingnorance. A creator reference never occurred to me. That's very interesting.

The craving, grasping and ignorance are the product of the mind.
The question is who crate the mind.
Buddha said this question is not relevant to the goal.
Because you do not have to know who build the house to destroy it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”


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