Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
paul
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by paul »

The 'flaw' you find in Buddhism is because you can't reconcile what you see around you with what is presented in the Dhamma, you find a difference between conventional and ultimate reality. I suggest you make this 'flaw' a subject of contemplation because the 'flaw' is really a door.
robbie77
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by robbie77 »

jackson wrote:Hi Robbie,
Part of what fascinated me about Ajahn Sumedho's, and particularly Ajahn Chah's talks when I first got into Buddhism was that they were obviously speaking from a place of deep understanding that was hard to fathom, a place that not just anybody talks from. If you want to doubt that there's people who have seen the deathless then that's your choice, but I'd encourage you not to look for a perfect being but to instead prove the Dhamma for yourself, don't look at it as an impossibility but rather as a worthwhile effort which is doable. Ajahn Chah once said to his monks something along the lines of "if you've been in robes five years and you are not a stream winner then you haven't really been practicing." The Buddha wasn't asking the impossible of us, but if we have a doubting and defeatist attitude then this will sabotage our efforts. With time, diligence, and consistent practice our faith should grow and doubts begin to vanish. It is doable.
Metta, :smile:
Sadhu sadhu sadhu
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samseva
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by samseva »

pegembara wrote:I am aware of his background but who knows what his mind state was at the end? The quote that was attributed to him still stands and that is the important point.
The quote may be true (although looking at Steve Job's own temperament and behaviours, it does remove credibility), however it was used to demonstrate happiness and fulfilment in life, in line with the thread which is about inner and spiritual happiness and progress. From Steve Job's own behaviour, it doesn't prove that worldly pursuits bring happiness and fulfilment at all.
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cappuccino
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by cappuccino »

Beyond stream entry, there is no doubt.
Nor is the dhamma flawed.
robbie77
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by robbie77 »

cappuccino wrote:Beyond stream entry, there is no doubt.
Nor is the dhamma flawed.
How true! My one faith has indeed been shaken a little but ultimately, I see very clearly the futility of the worldly search. My life is an ongoing investigation into what causes lasting happiness and satisfaction. The teaching is beautiful in the beginning, the middle and the end.

:namaste:
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samseva
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by samseva »

robbie77 wrote:How true! My one faith has indeed been shaken a little but ultimately, I see very clearly the futility of the worldly search. My life is an ongoing investigation into what causes lasting happiness and satisfaction. The teaching is beautiful in the beginning, the middle and the end.
Investigation is fine; it is even encouraged by the Buddha. To blindly accept the teachings without question would be blind faith. The only thing that is crucial is that you go all the way with your investigations, to look deeply and carefully at your own views regarding the teachings.
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cappuccino
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by cappuccino »

(A blind person doesn't see a reason for faith.)
SarathW
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by SarathW »

Faith, wisdom, energy, concentration and mindfulness are to be practiced together.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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_anicca_
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by _anicca_ »

Lazy_eye wrote:The main philosophical objection that I see is the objection that Buddhism overstates the case: that is, dukkha is certainly a facet of worldly existence, but is it pervasive to the extent of necessitating a search for nirodha?

After all, dukkha is not always apparent and sukkha is sometimes apparent. If dukkha is there but someone hasn't noticed it yet, is it really dukkha (from the standpoint of that person)?

I can see a couple of rejoinders to this objection. The traditional one is punabbhava (re-becoming). If punabbhava is the case, then the "dukkha potential" in all experience will sooner or later become apparent. Given enough time, all things lose their power to enchant, and the kammic consequences have an opportunity to manifest. Of course, answering the objection in this way necessitates accepting the premise that punabbhava happens; if you don't accept that premise, the objection stands.

Another rejoinder, not dependent on punabbhava, is that Buddhism is for people who have grasped the pervasiveness of dukkha personally to an extent that motivates them to seek nirodha. In this case, Buddhism is less a "philosophy" and more of a choice based on personal inclination, experience or insight. To the extent that one experiences samvega, Buddhism may be helpful. A person who isn't especially bothered by this sense of alienation or dismay will not see much of value in the Dhamma.

I don't know if this is the case in Theravada, but Mahayanists speak of people having "affinity" for Buddhism. There might be some truth to that.
This was a really thought provoking argument, but one must remember the three marks of existence: dukkha, anicca, and anatta.
As you briefly touched on, even pleasant feelings eventually cause suffering because they are so fleeting and phantasmal. Of course, it takes a lot of bhavana and wisdom to realize this.
Some people are just oblivious to it.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia
pegembara
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by pegembara »

samseva wrote:
pegembara wrote:I am aware of his background but who knows what his mind state was at the end? The quote that was attributed to him still stands and that is the important point.
The quote may be true (although looking at Steve Job's own temperament and behaviours, it does remove credibility), however it was used to demonstrate happiness and fulfilment in life, in line with the thread which is about inner and spiritual happiness and progress. From Steve Job's own behaviour, it doesn't prove that worldly pursuits bring happiness and fulfilment at all.
Exactly. From where I am standing, there is no flaw in Buddhist teachings. The struggle ends with the knowledge that there is nothing to lose as per quote. That is when inner and spiritual happiness is realised.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Holi Hryno
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by Holi Hryno »

pegembara wrote:
robbie77 wrote: Firstly, the assumption, that life is suffering, or perhaps it would be better to say that all ego based action and perception leads to suffering. The Buddhist response to this seems to be to observe the states that the self goes through. Certainly, Ajahn Sumedho's approach can be summed up as "it's just another temporary state arising and passing away." The implications seem to be that you should just let go of your ideas, goals, hopes, dreams and just observe the different states since anything else just leads to suffering. This appeals to people who haven't managed to be very successful in their lives and have given up but still are striving to give their lives some meaning. Those who have however, made successes of their lives, do these people see that they should just let go and observe things changing and passing away? Or do they take life by the scruff of the neck, make something of themselves and strive for and achieve happiness in what is a highly competitive world we live in today?
Buddhism seems to have nothing to offer for someone who says that their feelings are motivators for action and to get on and realise their dreams rather than thinking that their feelings are just the origins of suffering when they are attached to.

Just some musings. Perhaps somebody has some interesting idea related to my writings...

Regards

Rob
How about this reflection from someone who had made something of himself and strived for and achieved happiness in what is a highly competitive world we live in?

Image

Did Steve ever comment on the treament of workers at Foxcon?
dhammarelax
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by dhammarelax »

robbie77 wrote:I'd like to preface what I'll say with a statement; I am extremely respectful of Buddhism, I have stayed at monasteries in the forest tradition several times and have listened to dhamma talks from that tradition on a near daily basis for the last 7 years. However, does not Buddhism have its limits? And is it not based on one giant assumption?
Firstly, the assumption, that life is suffering, or perhaps it would be better to say that all ego based action and perception leads to suffering. The Buddhist response to this seems to be to observe the states that the self goes through. Certainly, Ajahn Sumedho's approach can be summed up as "it's just another temporary state arising and passing away." The implications seem to be that you should just let go of your ideas, goals, hopes, dreams and just observe the different states since anything else just leads to suffering. This appeals to people who haven't managed to be very successful in their lives and have given up but still are striving to give their lives some meaning. Those who have however, made successes of their lives, do these people see that they should just let go and observe things changing and passing away? Or do they take life by the scruff of the neck, make something of themselves and strive for and achieve happiness in what is a highly competitive world we live in today?
Buddhism seems to have nothing to offer for someone who says that their feelings are motivators for action and to get on and realise their dreams rather than thinking that their feelings are just the origins of suffering when they are attached to.
Buddhist teachers seem to have a little to say to someone who wants something bad and goes out and gets it. His or her desire is to get something to make them happy and if ou have met these people, my goodness they DO seem very happy and satisfied and I have yet to find a monk who is happy with letting go of their dreams and just sit or walk around watching their mind and what they are attached to. Is not the reason we are attached to things because we want them? Shouldn't we go out and get them and, in getting them, do we not end up happier for it?

I can see the other side, that craving leads to suffering, but what about when we get what we crave? The mansion? The beautiful partner? The dream career?

Just some musings. Perhaps somebody has some interesting idea related to my writings...

Regards

Rob
Hi Rob, there are 4 noble truths that go together, the 4rth one which is the noble eightfold path is meant to be developed, is the positive side of the path we want this things, morality, concentration and wisdom, we want those things because they lead us to better and better mind states, happy peacefull uplifted mind states, specificlly as is stated in MN 117, the 7 factors build up right concentration, right concentration is Jhana, even the first jhana has rapture as a component, rapture is another word for extasis, euphoria, a feeling that is stronger than even sexual orgasm, the skilled budhist practitioner learns how to achieve thoses states at will, can you imagine beign able to summon a feeling like that at will at any time? I think that that is better than having a pile of bricks or a girlfriend. First things first try to attain this jhana.

Smile all the time
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5
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retrofuturist
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robbie,

I would encourage you to continue reflecting on any apparent contradictions, so that you can become increasingly able to refine your view of the Dhamma...
Nanananda, in Nibbana Sermon 15 wrote:The task of seeing the spectrum of rainbow colours through a tiny dewdrop hanging from a creeper or a leaf is one that calls for a high degree of mindfulness. Simply by standing or sitting with one's face towards the rising sun, one will not be able to catch a glimpse of the brilliant spectrum of rainbow colours through the dewdrop. It requires a particular viewpoint. Only when one focuses on that viewpoint, can one see it.

So it is with the spectrum of the six qualities of the Dhamma. Here, too, the correct viewpoint is a must, and that is right view. Reflection on the meaning of deep discourses helps one to straighten up right view.

Where right view is lacking, morality inclines towards dogmatic attachment to rituals, sīlabbataparāmāsa. Concentration turns out to be wrong concentration, micchā samādhi.

Like the one who sits facing the sun, one might be looking in the direction of the Dhamma, but right view is not something one inherits by merely going to refuge to the Buddha. It has to be developed with effort and proper attention. View is something that has to be straightened up. For diṭṭhujukamma, the act of straightening up one's view is reckoned as one of the ten skilful deeds, kusalakamma.

So however long one may sit with folded legs, gazing at the Buddha sun, one might not be able to see the six rainbow colours of the Dhamma. One may be short of just one-hundredth of an inch as the proper adjustment for right view. Yet it is a must. Once that adjustment is made, one immediately, then and there, tavad'eva, catches a glimpse of the spectrum of the Dhamma that the Buddha has proclaimed.
If we blindly swallow or glaze over any perceived contradictions, or rest content with current understandings, then that glimpse of the true Dhamma may remain forever out of reach.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
pegembara
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Re: Is Buddhist philosophy flawed?

Post by pegembara »

Holi Hryno wrote:
pegembara wrote:
robbie77 wrote: Firstly, the assumption, that life is suffering, or perhaps it would be better to say that all ego based action and perception leads to suffering. The Buddhist response to this seems to be to observe the states that the self goes through. Certainly, Ajahn Sumedho's approach can be summed up as "it's just another temporary state arising and passing away." The implications seem to be that you should just let go of your ideas, goals, hopes, dreams and just observe the different states since anything else just leads to suffering. This appeals to people who haven't managed to be very successful in their lives and have given up but still are striving to give their lives some meaning. Those who have however, made successes of their lives, do these people see that they should just let go and observe things changing and passing away? Or do they take life by the scruff of the neck, make something of themselves and strive for and achieve happiness in what is a highly competitive world we live in today?
Buddhism seems to have nothing to offer for someone who says that their feelings are motivators for action and to get on and realise their dreams rather than thinking that their feelings are just the origins of suffering when they are attached to.

Just some musings. Perhaps somebody has some interesting idea related to my writings...

Regards

Rob
How about this reflection from someone who had made something of himself and strived for and achieved happiness in what is a highly competitive world we live in?

Image

Did Steve ever comment on the treament of workers at Foxcon?
That is why the reflection is needed. Realisation of the truth and true freedom would necessarily result in a change in outward behaviour
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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