Are these from the Pali Canon?

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Homohabilis
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Are these from the Pali Canon?

Post by Homohabilis »

(Not sure if this is the proper forum to post this; if not, please let me know.)

I came across the passages below a while ago, and hope somebody can tell me if they are indeed from the Canon, and if so where they can be found.

1. I'm pretty sure this is from the Canon, as it is quoted in S. Radhakrishnan's Introduction to his translation of the Dhammapada (p. 11), but he gives no source:
There is nothing esoteric about his teaching. He speaks with scorn of those who profess to have secret truths. "O disciples, there are three to whom secrecy belongs and not openness. Secrecy belongs to women, not openness; secrecy belongs to priestly wisdom, not openness; secrecy belongs to false doctrine, not openness.... the doctrines and the rules proclaimed by the perfect Buddha shine before all the world and not in secret."
2. Don't remember where I saw this, but I like it; seems particularly apposite to current events:
"Governments and royal rule, Ananda, are nuisances like robbers, pestilence, famine, mosquitoes, gnats, and so forth. It is a wise man indeed who has learned to endure them with fortitude."
Any information much appreciated.
Last edited by Homohabilis on Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cooran
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

Post by cooran »

For the quote on secrecy see here:
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/budtch/budte ... m#_ednref4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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daverupa
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

Post by daverupa »

cooran wrote:For the quote on secrecy see here
Still not in the Nikayas, it seems. I can't follow the cite all the way back.

Neither of those are familiar, it seems to me... there's the "closed fist & open fist" of teachers referred to in the MahaParinibbanaSutta, but nothing like the above.

If the Dhammapada you've read is the Radhakrishnan translation, there will be other issues; that sounds like it's from the introduction, yes? I am willing to wager that's just sort of dangling there...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Nicolas
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

Post by Nicolas »

daverupa wrote:
cooran wrote:For the quote on secrecy see here
Still not in the Nikayas, it seems. I can't follow the cite all the way back.
It is in the Nikayas:
Paṭicchanna Sutta wrote: Bhikkhus, these three are carried away covered, not openly. What three? Women are carried away covered not openly. Brahmanical mutterings are done under cover and Wrong view is covered not made manifest.

Bhikkhus, these three when made manifest shine. What three?

Bhikkhus, the moon shines when manifest, the sun shines when manifest and the Teaching and Discipline declared by the Thus Gone One shines when manifest and not when covered. These three shine when manifest and not when covered.
daverupa
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

Post by daverupa »

Nicolas wrote:It is in the Nikayas:
The first passage has:
"O disciples, there are three to whom secrecy belongs and not openness. Secrecy belongs to women, not openness; secrecy belongs to priestly wisdom, not openness; secrecy belongs to false doctrine, not openness.... the doctrines and the rules proclaimed by the perfect Buddha shine before all the world and not in secret
while the second has
Bhikkhus, these three are carried away covered, not openly. What three? Women are carried away covered not openly. Brahmanical mutterings are done under cover and Wrong view is covered not made manifest.
"It is in the Nikayas" does not apply as yet, given these two very different translations. Anyone have Bodhi's AN at hand?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Nicolas
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

Post by Nicolas »

Paṭicchanna Sutta (Pali)

PS: This is ven. Bodhi's translation (taken from a scan of his translation of the Anguttara Nikaya found online):
Bhikkhus, there are these three things that flourish when concealed, not when exposed. What three? (1) Women flourish when concealed, not when exposed. (2) The hymns of the brahmins flourish when concealed, not when exposed. (3) And wrong views flourish when concealed, not when exposed. These are the three things that flourish when concealed, not when exposed.
Bhikkhus, there are these three things that shine when exposed, not when concealed. What three? (1) The moon shines when exposed, not when concealed. (2) The sun shines when exposed, not when concealed. (3) The Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata shines when exposed, not when concealed. These are the three things that shine when exposed, not when concealed.
daverupa
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

Post by daverupa »

secrecy belongs and not openness

carried away covered, not openly

flourish when concealed, not when exposed
So, what's all this mean?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Homohabilis
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

Post by Homohabilis »

Thanks, all, for the responses and links. (Apologies for tardiness in returning here; chronic illness considerably complicates my activities.)

Indeed, it appears that the first passage is from the Aṅguttara Nikāya. The quote at BuddhaSasana cites AN Part 1, p. 261, which I'm guessing is the location in the original PTS version. The quote in the Radhakrishnan Dhammapada is identical, so is probably the PTS rendering – which I'd guess was the only English translation available in 1950 when the book was first published. (Though I guess Radhakrishnan could have translated the passage himself, as he apparently did the text of the Dhammapada.)

Then the second link, from Nicolas, goes to what appears to be a complete English translation of Aṅguttara Nikāya: 3 Tika Nipāta: 13. Kusināravaggo (Bharaṇḍuvaggo), in which this passage is shown as §9. "Paṭicchannasuttaṃ - The covered up" / AN 132. The English is somewhat awkward; I prefer the first version.

And finally, Nicolas provides Ven. Bodhi's translation, from the Wisdom volume of The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, where I found it also, on page 363 of the PDF edition, identified as "131 (9) Concealed".

The considerable differences in the translations certainly provide an object lesson in the difficulty of "exactly" translating between only distantly related languages (Pali and English are both Indo-European – unlike Chinese – but only a linguist could figure that out; thanks, Sir William). I find I still prefer the first version (by Rhys-Davids?) even over the Bodhi, even if the latter might be more precise.

I wondered who might have been the translator of the "covered" version, so I went to the home page of the site, which turned out to be in Russian, though apparently hosted in Ukraine (maybe Eastern Ukraine, which is really part of Russia):

Колесо Дхаммы. Сайт учения Будды в его исходном виде.
Wheel of Dharma. The site of the Buddha's teachings in its original form.

I note that Cyrillic 'х' (/kh/) is used for the Latin 'h' in transliterating aspirated consonants – Дхамма, Тханиссаро Бхиккху - except in 'Buddha', which is rendered simply Будда. I suppose the latter must be the already established convention for rendering 'Buddha' in Russian. Google Translate is smart enough to render Будда as Buddha, and Дхамма-виная as Dhamma-Vinaya.

I don't read Russian, but the site looks interesting, and Google Translate is fun to play with. I found the index page for Aṅguttara Nikāya, which looked familiar; I knew I'd seen it before. And indeed, the Russian site seems to have copied the content of the Mettanet Lanka site, which has been on the 'Net since the 90s, I believe; here's its version of the page.

I suppose the Колесо Дхаммы site can count on its visitors being able to read English – though as I look around, there's much material in Russian (including what appears to be a lecture on "Buddhism" given by T.W. Rhys-Davids in 1894 or '95, and apparently translated into Russian a few years later, including several antique Cyrillic letters that are no longer used in Russian – I guess they're no impediment to educated Russians?). An interesting site; clearly a lot of work has gone into it.

Anyway, the translation of the "covered" version seems to have been done by a Sinhalese nun (do they have bhikkhunis there now?), which would explain the somewhat awkward English. Why Sutta Central links to the English text on the Russian site rather than its original location at Mettanet Lanka I don't know.

Thanissaro's anthology of AN translations (Handful of Leaves IV) does not include this sutta. I note also that the Lekha Sutta which follows it is numbered AN 3:133 in Thanissaro's book and the Mettanet version (where Paṭicchannasuttaṃ - The covered up is AN 1:132), but AN 3:132 at Sutta Central (where Paṭicchan­na­sutta is AN 131). Apparently there is one less sutta in the Sutta Central AN? Odd.

Meanwhile,
So, what's this all mean?
Well, I think Radhakrishnan explains it well enough:
There is nothing esoteric about his teaching. He speaks with scorn of those who profess to have secret truths.
As for the second passage, I've been looking around, but have found no provenance or information. I guess it's a Fake Buddha Quote. Too bad; I liked it.

Well, thanks again. Sabbe sattā bhavantu sukhitattā.
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Nicolas
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

Post by Nicolas »

Homohabilis wrote:I wondered who might have been the translator of the "covered" version, so I went to the home page of the site, which turned out to be in Russian, though apparently hosted in Ukraine (maybe Eastern Ukraine, which is really part of Russia):
[...]
I found the index page for Aṅguttara Nikāya, which looked familiar; I knew I'd seen it before. And indeed, the Russian site seems to have copied the content of the Mettanet Lanka site, which has been on the 'Net since the 90s, I believe; here's its version of the page.
[...]
Anyway, the translation of the "covered" version seems to have been done by a Sinhalese nun (do they have bhikkhunis there now?), which would explain the somewhat awkward English. Why Sutta Central links to the English text on the Russian site rather than its original location at Mettanet Lanka I don't know.
The translator is Sister Uppalavanna, who is German.
Homohabilis wrote: I note also that the Lekha Sutta which follows it is numbered AN 3:133 in Thanissaro's book and the Mettanet version (where Paṭicchannasuttaṃ - The covered up is AN 1:132), but AN 3:132 at Sutta Central (where Paṭicchan­na­sutta is AN 131). Apparently there is one less sutta in the Sutta Central AN? Odd.
There is no missing sutta, just a different numbering (some suttas are grouped together when they are not in other places).
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

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Nicolas wrote: (do they have bhikkhunis there now?)
http://www.vijitharama.org/activities/meth-sisila.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

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"Governments and royal rule, Ananda, are nuisances like robbers, pestilence, famine, mosquitoes, gnats, and so forth. It is a wise man indeed who has learned to endure them with fortitude."
I guess this proves how anarchist the Buddha was.

:anjali:
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

Post by Nicolas »

Homohabilis wrote:(do they have bhikkhunis there now?)
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Homohabilis
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Re: Are these from the Pali Canon?

Post by Homohabilis »

dhammacoustic wrote:
"Governments and royal rule, Ananda, are nuisances like robbers, pestilence, famine, mosquitoes, gnats, and so forth. It is a wise man indeed who has learned to endure them with fortitude."
I guess this proves how anarchist the Buddha was.
Well, only if he actually said it. And even then, I wouldn't characterize him as "anarchist" – he wasn't concerned with political issues or ideologies – only maybe a little annoyed after perhaps a long day of dealing with people's problems. I've seen one or two other quotes from the Canon that show him as a little tired now and then (and are perhaps the best evidence that such a person actually existed) – which is part of why this seemed like it might be genuine. As I wrote in the OP, I came across it somewhere (maybe a decade ago) and liked it, but recent efforts to identify the source have been unsuccessful. Thus, for now I'm afraid it must be regarded as spurious. Thus, in the interest of not putting words in the Buddha's mouth, I wouldn't be passing it around; there's too much of that sort of thing already.
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