Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Kalama
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Kalama »

Hi Mike,

you wrote:
"Thank you for clarifying. If I understand correctly, you disagree with the statement that the noble disciple (and/or the Buddha) still feels physical pain? "


where did you take this from?
Repeating :
"My issue as I mentioned before is the search for a lucid explanation without limiting afterwards the core statement of the 3rd N.T.
The realization of PariNibbana on the event of full awakening could be an option , especially when one considers the breakdown of the D.O. links "..

nothing about disagreement of the canonical sources stating that the Buddha/Arahant still feels physical pain.

Mike: "You have already been discussing that on the thread First and Third Noble Truth. I suggest you continue discussion there. "

yup......I posted under the Bhikkhu Bodhi topic , because it concerned his book.

Kalama
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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by mikenz66 »

Sorry, Kalama, in that case I clearly don't understand what you find lacking in Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments.

:anjali:
Mike
Kalama
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Kalama »

mikenz66 wrote:Sorry, Kalama, in that case I clearly don't understand what you find lacking in Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments.

:anjali:
Mike
Mike, the Venerable's proposition " Both the worldling and the noble disciple experience painful bodily feelings, but they respond to these feelings differently."
is lacking a plausible explanation why the cessation of suffering /dukkha as stated by the third Noble Truth/First Noble Truth does not cover bodily pain.
That both respond differently is not enough to elucidate what appears to be a discrepancy between the 'axioms ' of the Teaching.
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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by mikenz66 »

I'm sorry, I don't see what lucid explanation would fit there. Do you have a lucid explanation?

The noble truths, nibbana, dependent origination, and so on are covered in detail in Chapter IX:
http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/buddhas- ... ght-wisdom

You seem to be objecting to the overall layout of the book. The idea is that the suttas are arranged in a progressive manner: http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default ... review.pdf
In an ongoing series of lectures I began giving at Bodhi Monastery
in New Jersey in January 2003, I devised a scheme of my own to organ-
ize the contents of the Majjhima Nikaya. This scheme unfolds the
Buddha’s message progressively, from the simple to the difficult, from
the elementary to the profound. Upon reflection, I saw that this scheme
could be applied not only to the Majjhima Nikaya, but to the four
Nikayas as a whole. The present book organizes suttas selected from
all four Nikayas within this thematic and progressive framework.
Although my particular use of this
scheme may be original, it is not sheer innovation but is based upon a
threefold distinction that the Pali commentaries make among the types
of benefits to which the practice of the Dhamma leads: (1) welfare and
happiness visible in this present life; (2) welfare and happiness per-
taining to future lives; and (3) the ultimate good, Nibbana (Skt: nirvana).
The first chapter is stated to be background to this:
Three preliminary chapters are designed to lead up to those that
embody this threefold scheme. Chapter I is a survey of the human con-
dition as it is apart from the appearance of a Buddha in the world. Per-
haps this was the way human life appeared to the Bodhisatta—the
future Buddha—as he dwelled in the Tusita heaven gazing down upon
the earth, awaiting the appropriate occasion to descend and take his
final birth. We behold a world in which human beings are driven help-
lessly toward old age and death; in which they are spun around by
circumstances so that they are oppressed by bodily pain, cast down
by failure and misfortune, made anxious and fearful by change and
deterioration. It is a world in which people aspire to live in harmony,
but in which their untamed emotions repeatedly compel them, against
their better judgment, to lock horns in conflicts that escalate into vio-
lence and wholesale devastation. Finally, taking the broadest view of
all, it is a world in which sentient beings are propelled forward, by
their own ignorance and craving, from one life to the next, wandering
blindly through the cycle of rebirths called samsara.
It would, therefore, be strange if the introduction to that first chapter contained a detailed discussion of the Noble Truths.

:anjali:
Mike
Kalama
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Kalama »

mikenz66 wrote:I'm sorry, I don't see what lucid explanation would fit there. Do you have a lucid explanation?

snip
T

It would, therefore, be strange if the introduction to that first chapter contained a detailed discussion of the Noble Truths.

:anjali:
Mike

Maybe we should ask Bhikkhu Bodhi whether he has one ..I already made a suggestion which obviously missed your attention.
For any additional comment I prefer to follow your recommendation to continue under the topic 'First and Third Noble Truth '
Kalama
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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by mikenz66 »

Kalama wrote: For any additional comment I prefer to follow your recommendation to continue under the topic 'First and Third Noble Truth '
Kalama
Yes, that thread, First and Third Noble Truth is a better place to discuss your questions.

:anjali:
Mike
Kalama
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Kalama »

mikenz66 wrote:
Kalama wrote: For any additional comment I prefer to follow your recommendation to continue under the topic 'First and Third Noble Truth '
Kalama
Yes, that thread, First and Third Noble Truth is a better place to discuss your questions.

:anjali:
Mike
Hi Mike ( and All ),

before I forget: should anybody stumple upon a further elaboration of the Venerable's proposition in his introduction " Both the worldling and the noble disciple experience painful bodily feelings, but they respond to these feelings differently." please post under the topic 'First and Third Noble Truth'

B.T.W. I am so to speak a Kalama- minded Theravadin and - repeating in order to avoid misunderstandings - looking for a plausible explanation why the cessation of suffering /dukkha as stated by the third Noble Truth/First Noble Truth does not cover bodily pain. That Wordling and Noble One /Arahant respond differently is not enough to elucidate what appears to be a discrepancy between the 'axioms ' of the Teaching.

My only suggestion for now: on the event of awakening / cessation of suffering PariNibbana is an option.

Looking forword to learn ..


Kalama
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