What comes first? release or the knowledge.

[SarathW]

What comes first? release or the knowledge.
==========

"Thus fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as its prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.


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[mikenz66]

Perhaps it is more obvious in this translation:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.23

“Thus, bhikkhus, with ignorance as proximate cause, volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as proximate cause, consciousness; with consciousness as proximate cause, name-and-form; with name-and-form as proximate cause, the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as proximate cause, contact; with contact as proximate cause, feeling; with feeling as proximate cause, craving; with craving as proximate cause, clinging; with clinging as proximate cause, existence; with existence as proximate cause, birth; with birth as proximate cause, suffering; with suffering as proximate cause, faith; with faith as proximate cause, gladness; with gladness as proximate cause, rapture; with rapture as proximate cause, tranquillity; with tranquillity as proximate cause, happiness; with happiness as proximate cause, concentration; with concentration as proximate cause, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are; with the knowledge and vision of things as they really are as proximate cause, revulsion; with revulsion as proximate cause, dispassion; with dispassion as proximate cause, liberation; with liberation as proximate cause, the knowledge of destruction.

After liberation there is the knowledge of what it means to be liberated. This seems logical enough.

Bhikkhu Bodi's notes say, in part:

The knowledge of destruction in regard to destruction (khayasmiṃ khaye ñāṇaṃ) is the reviewing knowledge (paccavekkhaṇañāṇa) which occurs when the destruction of the taints—namely, arahantship—has been obtained.

Recall, also, that in countless suttas liberation is announced as follows:

‘I understand: Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’”
e.g. https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.32

Mike

[SarathW]

Thanks Mike.
The reason I ask this qestion was, in Noble Eight Fold Path, for Arahants the sequence come as Right Knowledge and Right Release.

[mikenz66]

Isn't that a ten-fold path (adding knowledge and release)?
http://suttacentral.net/en/mn117

I think that's a more general use of "knowledge". The sutta you first quoted is talking about the specific knowledge of what is destroyed with liberation (taints, etc).


Mike

[paul]

The so called 'right knowledge' and 'right release' are only modern means of explanation of the wisdom factors Right View and Right Thought at the special case of time of release, when the Path must be discarded (as with The Raft, MN, 22).

[SarathW]

Hi Paul
What do you mean by modern means.
Can you explain a bit more about what you think about, the right knowledge and right release.

[seeker242]

If you are talking about "knowledge of release", then I think it would follow that release would have to come first. As you can't have knowledge that something has happened when it has not even happened yet. You can't have knowledge of your mind being free from 3 poisons if it has not yet been freed from 3 poisons. That would be impossible!

[paul]

What do you mean by modern means.
Can you explain a bit more about what you think about, the right knowledge and right release.

“Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? In one of right view, right intention comes into being; in one of right intention, right speech comes into being; in one of right speech, right action comes into being; in one of right action, right livelihood comes into being; in one of right livelihood, right effort comes into being; in one of right effort, right mindfulness comes into being; in one of right mindfulness, right concentration comes into being; in one of right concentration, right knowledge comes into being; in one of right knowledge, right deliverance comes into being. Thus, bhikkhus, the path of the disciple in higher training possesses eight factors, the arahant possesses ten factors."

I mean this aspect has been emphasized by some modern teachers, possibly giving the wrong impression. The threefold division of the Path into Morality, Concentration and Wisdom and their cyclic interaction means that in any case, even with Arahants, Right View is the determining factor: “Therein, bhikkhus, Right View comes first." In my interpretation, right knowledge is a special case of Right View when deliverance is attained and the path factors abandoned; there is no further thought so Right Thought becomes simply 'release'. Right knowledge and right release are simply transcendent versions of Right View and Right Thought.

[SarathW]

Thanks all. I got another question.
======
"conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite."

Q: There are lot of stress and suffering in the world. We all know that. I do not see much conviction among people.
But we turn our blind eye to stress and suffering. Why we do not want to see such a obvious thing in front of us?
Why people see suffering and stress as happiness?

Why?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Sarath,

The sutta extract you quote goes primarily to show that there is suffering, therefore there may also be a conviction to remove that suffering.

Therefore, instead of being too focused on why others do not take up that transcendental path, it may be more profitable to be thankful for the Buddha who taught the means of escape and that you have been introduced to that way. Most people are unaware of the potential for escape from suffering, but you have learned about it! What better proximate cause for joy?



Metta,
Retro.

[SarathW]

Thanks Retro.
What I see is many of us experience suffering but look for the happiness following a wrong path.
- Clinging to right and ceremony
- Turn you mind towards attachments.
- Satisfy with mediocre attainments
-Placing our conviction in wrong places.

[mikenz66]

I'd like to also point out:
SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions
This thread contains several translations, and various comments from Bhikkhu Bodhi and others, including some comments on how the commentaries map it onto the insight knowledges.


Mike

[SarathW]

Thanks Mike