udani wrote:
As explained earlier after listing on his dhamma sermons and having dhamma discutions and observing his behaviour. I believe that he is in this great position. His explanation of dhamma is perfect and no one can explain it like that without having that experiance. So I believe so. I did not hang on that "arahants " term when I heard about him. Just listen what that venerable thero said and realized something. If you don't want to believe it just forget. If you are not agreed with his sermons just forget. I just share my feelings and my experiance. Anybody can have their own judgement. If you not agreed with this arahant term just leave it.
Follow him and practice under him. I can clearly see that you are man of insight with proper outlook so you won't be cheated with clear mind.
The only problem that he need to put out more practical things on "how to" because in books he clarify only doubts and misunderstandings of Dhamma which is important but ask him if you can what Sotapanna and Sakadagami need to do for further progression - like bhavana, kammanatha or staying in samadhi? (staying too much I see I could easily get addicted to bliss like junkie so I only keep myself in pre-jhana or 1st jhana most thru the day to cope effortlessly with samsara) how to penetrate subtle dukkha? Maha Boowa put out there all path but still some things I would like to ask for deeper understanding in terms of practical approach.
Remember… the Buddha had said that everyone living in this world is crazy, by the phrase, “Sabbē prutajjana ummattakā”; excluding the Arahants, everyone else is crazy. Would you get angry if a mad person scolds? Do we get angry for a crazy thing done by a crazy person? Just think about it!
It might be helpful to some if I repeat again here a story from the Commentaries:
A certain monk was living in dependence on an Arahant. Living in dependence on a teacher means that one performs various duties for him, washing robes, sweeping his cell, carrying his bowl when walking close behind him on almsround etc. A newly ordained or uneducated monk must live in dependence on a senior monk for five years before he can be considered able to live independently.
One day, while walking behind his teacher for alms, the pupil asked the Arahant: "Venerable sir, how can one know that someone is an Arahant?"
The Arahant replied, "It is not easy, friend, to know if someone is an Arahant. One might live in dependence on an Arahant, doing all of the duties for him, and carrying his bowl for him while walking for alms close behind him, yet a pupil might not know that his teacher is an Arahant."
Even when given such a hint, the pupil did not realise that his teacher was an Arahant.
The converse is also true, of course. A foolish worldling could easily believe that his teacher is an Arahant, even though he may be far from Arahantship. Some monks may be very abstemious and composed, learned in the Abhidhamma, and skilled in some aspects of meditation, but outward signs are no measure of Arahantship. The Cūlahatthapadopama Sutta should be read carefully.
The Arahants are extremely modest. They do not go around letting everyone know that they are Arahants (unlike one deluded "Arahant with psychic powers" who recently wrote to me asking whether she should commit suicide as she had achieved everything that should be done, but did not wish to wait 50 years to die).
Tell her to sit in samadhi for 50 years (50 years would feel like 5 minutes) but she obviously need psychological care.
Remember… the Buddha had said that everyone living in this world is crazy, by the phrase, “Sabbē prutajjana ummattakā”; excluding the Arahants, everyone else is crazy. Would you get angry if a mad person scolds? Do we get angry for a crazy thing done by a crazy person? Just think about it!
Greetings to all!
It took quite some time to go through all the 6 pages of posting. I am sorry that I could not join the discussion earlier, as I join the forum only recently. It is quite interesting to read some posting. I can see some fire work going on. It shows how much our Dhamma friends are interested in finding the so called ‘pure Dhamma’. Why I said so called ‘pure Dhamma’, I will explain later. Bikkhu Pesala is worried that his Sri Lankan supports are not coming forth. I am a Sri Lankan having enough experience with self claimed arahants and alike with some case studies done, which I will share later.
I have read the Sinhala and English version of Ven. Vajirabuddhi’s “Path to Nibbana Declared by Gautama Buddha” years back. Also I have listened to his sermons also. The thing I have noted is, in the Sinhala version of the book and in his sermon, I did not find a word to confirm that he is an Arahant. May be I have missed somewhere. But in the cover page of the English version it says Arahant Mahanuwara Vajjirabuddhi Thera. I did not see anywhere he has either accepted or denied it. The address given is one in Sri Lanka and for information the address given is one in San Diego, California. So if someone let me know how and on what basis it has been established that Ven Vajirabuddhi is an Arahant, I will be more than grateful. I saw Sarath W. also making the same query. I do not know he got an answer. I do not want to read and listen again and again. Before I make a comment, I must clear the topic. Otherwise we will be sitting on our tail. I have extensively studied his sermons/books and made some notes also sometime back.
In the posts I saw it is written that Arahants shall not expose their supreme human state to others. Yes in the VP under pacittiya there is a rule called Bhutarovana, which says that a Bikkhu attaining spiritual attainments shall not disclose to unordained person. It is true. But Lord Buddha has endorsed a way of expressing super mundane attainments. It is said that identifying an Arahant is very difficult task. Yes it is. Yet Lord has identified certain qualities and features of Arahants to identify them. All these are given in the canon.
I have prepared some leaflets on above matters to be circulated in my Dhamma discussion forums. I shall do some posting in that sense when I get an answer to my question. Also I have done some case studies on some individuals who claim that they have achieved superior human state attainments. There are over 67 levels (uttarimanussadhamma) one can attain. I may share some of my studies later.
This may be off topic, but can you give some info or a link which contains them?
You will find them in the Vinaya Pitaka, under the Pārājika rules, or in Ajahn Thanissaro's Buddhist Monastic Discipline, but not as a numbered list. Magga, phala, jhāna, abhiñña, destruction of the fetters, etc.
Bhikku Pesala has already given some explanation to the attainments. Most of us think that super mental status are Jhana, Magga Pala and things like Abbhinja. But there are so many. I said 67 levels to make others understand that there are so many levels. Actually it is more than 67 as some are sub divided in to other levels. For to somebody understand what they are at a glance, I am listing below the 67 different levels as indicated in the Paccitiya Paliya.
1. Jhana- 1st, 2nd 3rd and 4th 04
2. Vimokkha – (3 Liberations,) Sunnata, Animitta, Appanihita, 03
3. Samadhi – Sunnata (emptiness), Animitta (signless), Appanihita (desireless) 03
4. Samapatti – Sunnata, Animitta, Appanihita 03
5. Nanadassana (trividya) – Pubbenivanussati, Dibbachakku, Asavakkaya 03
6. Magga Bhavana – Bhodi Pakshika Dhamma 37
7. Pala Saccikiriya – sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arhat 04
8. Klesha Prahanaya – Liberation from Raga (greed), Dvesha (aversion),Moha(delusion)03
9 Chittassa vinivaranata (freedom of mind from hindrances) 03
10. Sunnagara Abhiratiya (attachment to empty or buildings by 4 jhanas) 04
Total 67
Bhikku Pesala has already given the Yodhajiva Sutta in Pali. For the convenience of the readers who cannot understand Pali, I am copying the English version
Then Yodhajiva the headman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"
"Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that."
A second time... A third time Yodhajiva the headman said: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"
"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist.' If others then strike him down & slay him while he is thus striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the hell called the realm of those slain in battle. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."
When this was said, Yodhajiva the headman sobbed & burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't get past you by saying,
'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.'"
"I'm not crying, lord, because of what the Blessed One said to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of warriors who said: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.'
"Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."
I am yet to know how and why Ven. Vajirabuddhi Thera is called an Arahant. If anybody can explain, I will be more than thankful. I will be answering most of the questions and ambiguities most probably next week.
Bhikku Pesala has already given some explanation to the attainments. Most of us think that super mental status are Jhana, Magga Pala and things like Abbhinja. But there are so many. I said 67 levels to make others understand that there are so many levels. Actually it is more than 67 as some are sub divided in to other levels. For to somebody understand what they are at a glance, I am listing below the 67 different levels as indicated in the Paccitiya Paliya.
1. Jhana- 1st, 2nd 3rd and 4th 04
2. Vimokkha – (3 Liberations,) Sunnata, Animitta, Appanihita, 03
3. Samadhi – Sunnata (emptiness), Animitta (signless), Appanihita (desireless) 03
4. Samapatti – Sunnata, Animitta, Appanihita 03
5. Nanadassana (trividya) – Pubbenivanussati, Dibbachakku, Asavakkaya 03
6. Magga Bhavana – Bhodi Pakshika Dhamma 37
7. Pala Saccikiriya – sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arhat 04
8. Klesha Prahanaya – Liberation from Raga (greed), Dvesha (aversion),Moha(delusion)03
9 Chittassa vinivaranata (freedom of mind from hindrances) 03
10. Sunnagara Abhiratiya (attachment to empty or buildings by 4 jhanas) 04
Total 67
Bhikku Pesala has already given the Yodhajiva Sutta in Pali. For the convenience of the readers who cannot understand Pali, I am copying the English version
Then Yodhajiva the headman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"
"Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that."
A second time... A third time Yodhajiva the headman said: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"
"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist.' If others then strike him down & slay him while he is thus striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the hell called the realm of those slain in battle. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."
When this was said, Yodhajiva the headman sobbed & burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't get past you by saying,
'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.'"
"I'm not crying, lord, because of what the Blessed One said to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of warriors who said: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.'
"Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."
With metta
Piyatissa
Thanks
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
udani wrote:
As explained earlier after listing on his dhamma sermons and having dhamma discutions and observing his behaviour. I believe that he is in this great position. His explanation of dhamma is perfect and no one can explain it like that without having that experiance. So I believe so. I did not hang on that "arahants " term when I heard about him. Just listen what that venerable thero said and realized something. If you don't want to believe it just forget. If you are not agreed with his sermons just forget. I just share my feelings and my experiance. Anybody can have their own judgement. If you not agreed with this arahant term just leave it.
Follow him and practice under him. I can clearly see that you are man of insight with proper outlook so you won't be cheated with clear mind.
The only problem that he need to put out more practical things on "how to" because in books he clarify only doubts and misunderstandings of Dhamma which is important but ask him if you can what Sotapanna and Sakadagami need to do for further progression - like bhavana, kammanatha or staying in samadhi? (staying too much I see I could easily get addicted to bliss like junkie so I only keep myself in pre-jhana or 1st jhana most thru the day to cope effortlessly with samsara) how to penetrate subtle dukkha? Maha Boowa put out there all path but still some things I would like to ask for deeper understanding in terms of practical approach.
Dear saoshun,
This is my email address [email protected]...
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I am sorry that nobody came with an answer to my question. However, I thought I must write something. In my previous post I used the words, so called “pure Dhamma” and promised to explain why I used that words. For somebody to judge someone else’s Dhamma to be declared as it be pure or true, he or she shall have a masterly knowledge of Dhamma. Who will have it? An Arahant will be our first choice. Or else there should be someone who has in depth knowledge of Dhamma. He also can say this is or this is not what Lord Buddha has preached.
There is nice story I have heard. There was young boy in a village. When he was playing in the compound, he found a nice looking small stone. He took it and as it was bit different from the normal stones, he washed it and examined. But he could not think of much about the stone. He gave it to his father who is a farmer. He has little more knowledge than the boy. He suspected it to a gem stone, but could not imagine beyond that as he did not have much knowledge about gems. So he took it to the village headman. The village headman was more knowledgeable than the farmer. He knew that it is a gem, but did not know what variety, weight and the value etc. He took it to the master gem cutter in the town who is very knowledgeable in gemology. He examined the gem and gave all the details of the gem including the variety, weight and how much millions it is worth. This story shows that only master of the trade can give the correct or perfect judgment but nobody else. The knowledge of the boy, father and the village headman were not enough to give a correct opinion. That is why I said, to judge the purity or the perfectness of Dhamma preached by any person, it should be examined and the verdict shall be given by a master of Dhamma. But hearsay someone telling it is good Dhamma , pure Dhamma or perfect Dhamm has no validity.
But what is most appropriate is to apply the rule given by Lord Buddha himself. That is to make use of the Four Great References. This was given in the Maha-parinibbana sutta of DN and Mahapadesha sutta of AN. I will quote the first Great Reference only. You may read the above mentioned suttas for further information.
‘And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:
"So be it, Lord."
Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'
In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." “DN 16 Maha-parinibbana Sutta,Translated by Sister Vajira and Thanissara Bhikku”
I call this test, the litmus test. In this test a strip of paper is used to check acidity or the alkalinity of a solution. If it turns red it is acid and if it turns blue it is alkaline. It is a very positive test. But my friends Dhamma test is not an easy task. Sometimes you may have to search the whole tripitaka to find whether the uttered statements are matching or not. Also you must have in-depth knowledge of the canon also.
With my next posting I will show several suttas where Lord Buddha with no uncertain terms has preached on the fifth precept.
Thanks