the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Retro, all,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Alex,
Alex123 wrote:The D.O. is not just momentary ....Even in sutta-pitaka it is defined within 2-3 lives.
A couple of points in relation to this.

1. I was only talking about the link between avijja and sankhara, so even if one is inclined to partition dependent origination over multiple lives ala Buddhaghosa, these two segments (and the link between them) remain in the same temporal region.
[/quote]

The D.O. spread over multiple lifetimes is found in the sutta-pitaka.


The events that appear now may be due to causes done many lives back, or before ignorance ceased. For example Ven. MahaMoggallana died a very painful death. As the story goes (was it in commentary?) he killed his parents in a forest and last bits of that heineous kamma was giving its results in his last life.

Also the Arahant Angulimala felt great pains before his death, these pains were ripening of the bad kamma that he did prior to Awakening. So becoming awakened doesn't prevent results of past kamma to happen in some form prior to Parinibbana.

2. If you really do believe it to require "2-3 lives", are you then claiming that even after the complete cessation of ignorance, the results still take 2-3 lifetimes to peter out? This would certainly be at odds with what the Buddha said about arahants.
The kamma left will have to work itself out within the remainder of Arahats death, and the rest will become defunct kamma (ahosikamma).

Kamma is not a totally linear process. It can be greatly attenuated and in some cases completely abandoned (ahosikamma).


Ven. Angulimala would suffer greatly (for murdering 999 people) if he didn't become an Aryan. But because he became an Arahant he really cut off most of potential bad kamma results and severely weakened the rest.


With metta,

Alex
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Individual »

I'm probably just being mischievous here (proudly amusing myself with my own cleverness) and I hope I don't ruin Ben, Mike, and Retrofuturist's attempts here, but...
Alex123 wrote: First of all, please note that I put "feels" in quotes.
Yes, but not "I" or "my".

Therefore, I logically conclude you have sakkaya-ditthi and therefore no authority to describe what Nibbana feels like, or any approximations thereof not explicitly described in the suttas.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Alex123
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Re: Nihilism / annihilationism misrepresents the Buddha

Post by Alex123 »

manasikara wrote:I can't seem to post ANY replies (to others' posts) at present. The system won't allow me to. So I am simply starting up a new topic.

Nihilism has crept into Theravada Buddhism, despite our own scriptures clearly stating that Buddha was NOT either a nihilist or an annihilationist. I refer specifically to what is written below:
PariNibbāna is not some retirement home where consciousness go to exist for eternity. Unfortunately some teachers are afraid of giving a clear cut explanation of Final Nibbāna, and try to obfuscate the issue by making it sound as not complete and utter cessation without any remainder. Thus ending becomes reinterpreted as a new beginning, and nothing is reinterpreted as something. Existence of any kind is simply not worth it, every saṅkhāra is tainted with dukkha. Those who think that Final Nibbāna is some form of existence, haven't seen the fact that all and any experience is just more or less, hidden or revealed dukkha.
Alex123
Misrepresentation

37. "So teaching, so proclaiming, O monks, I have been baselessly, vainly, falsely and wrongly accused by some ascetics and brahmans: 'A nihilist[38] is the ascetic Gotama; He teaches the annihilation, the destruction, the non-being of an existing individual.'[39]

"As I am not as I do not teach, so have I been baselessly, vainly, falsely and wrongly accused by some ascetics and brahmans thus: 'A nihilist is the ascetic Gotama; He teaches the annihilation, the destruction, the non-being of an existing individual.'

"What I teach now as before, O monks, is suffering and the cessation of suffering.

The above is correct. The reason why what I say isn't anihhilation is because there is ultimately no Being-in-itself to be anihhilated.

But there is cause-effect stream, there is kamma & kammavipāka, there is rebirth. So no nihilism.

Clearly, then, even asking the question "will we exist?" or "will we not exist?" (after parinibbana) etc is not the right question,
That question wrongly assumes that there is a Self that can exist or that is anihhilated. In that way it is wrong.
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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Individual, all,
Individual wrote:I'm probably just being mischievous here (proudly amusing myself with my own cleverness) and I hope I don't ruin Ben, Mike, and Retrofuturist's attempts here, but...
Alex123 wrote: First of all, please note that I put "feels" in quotes.
Yes, but not "I" or "my".

Therefore, I logically conclude you have sakkaya-ditthi and therefore no authority to describe what Nibbana feels like, or any approximations thereof not explicitly described in the suttas.

I do not believe in a trully existing being that can exist/not-exist/both/neither after after parinibbana. I do not hold that there is a trully existing being that can be reborn from moment to moment, nothing to say about from life to life. However for the sake of coherency I use common words, this being a Buddhist board I hope that people understand that when I talk about an Arahant, I do NOT mean an Arahant as a trully existing Being, but as a certain procession of vipāka & kiriya cittas along with certain cetasikas and rūpas. Same with worldling except in that case there are also corresponding cittas of all 4 jāti and certain cetasikas and rūpas corresponding to that induvidial.

So please view all my recent messages (certainly this and the rebirth thread) with the above in mind.

With metta,

Alex
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alex,
Alex123 wrote:The D.O. spread over multiple lifetimes is found in the sutta-pitaka.
A matter of conjecture which probably warrants its own topic, in my opinion.
Alex123 wrote:The events that appear now may be due to causes done many lives back, or before ignorance ceased. For example Ven. MahaMoggallana died a very painful death. As the story goes (was it in commentary?) he killed his parents in a forest and last bits of that heineous kamma was giving its results in his last life.

Also the Arahant Angulimala felt great pains before his death, these pains were ripening of the bad kamma that he did prior to Awakening. So becoming awakened doesn't prevent results of past kamma to happen in some form prior to Parinibbana.
The death of these bhikkhus was noted in the Sutta Pitaka, but it was left for the commentaries to provide the explanations of kammic retribution which you detail above.
Alex123 wrote:The kamma left will have to work itself out within the remainder of Arahats death, and the rest will become defunct kamma (ahosikamma).
This is what you and the Mahavihara Theravada tradition say, but the Sutta Pitaka does not. Again, that's all well and good, and you're welcome to your view... but the differentiations are useful as different people put different stock in different sources of information. Being clear on the origins of certain theories and perspectives helps people decide for themselves what to accept, based on their own understandings of what doctrinal sources ought to be considered authoratative.

I understand it that kamma and vipaka cease to function once ignorance is destroyed and arahantship is attained. Ignorance sustains the notion of "self", which in turn sustains kamma and vipaka. Kamma does not exist outside of the aggregates, so once the burden of the aggregates is laid down, how can they come back and haunt the arahant in the form of vipaka? Just as a snake is not haunted by the skin it has shed, the arahant is not haunted by the kamma he/she has shed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Alex123 wrote: As I know, there is no permanent being within a worldling or an Arahant. There is just more dukkha and avijja within 5 aggregates of a worldling than an Arahant. The reason why I was talking about an Arahat/Tathagata was because that "person" was the subject of discussion of "What happens to a fully awakened at Death"?
Hello Alex,
Like the extinguishing of a flame whose fuel has run out and we can not say it has gone this way or that. The flame is a kind of relationship between fuel and oxygen. If the flame is blown out or the fuel runs out how can the relationship continue. I think this is what you are saying and I respect that. I would just stress again that the Buddha identified with Paṭicca-samuppāda and not with aggregates. I dont think the Buddha experienced pain as dukkha but we must agree to disagree there. Your language reads to me like you are asserting the non existence of an existing being after death. Even if you are not I think a greater degree of sensitivity is warranted regarding the effect of your words and how the can be understood.


With Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nihilism / annihilationism misrepresents the Buddha

Post by Individual »

manasikara wrote: Yes, Nibbana must be something OTHER than what we call existence here.
It must be? Why?

Could it not also be that Nibbana is nothing other than what we call existence or that what we call existence is not really existence?
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Re: Nihilism / annihilationism misrepresents the Buddha

Post by tiltbillings »

Individual wrote: Yes, Nibbana must be something OTHER than what we call existence here.
What is the most basic definition of nibbana given by the Buddha?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Nihilism / annihilationism misrepresents the Buddha

Post by Prasadachitta »

Individual wrote:
manasikara wrote: Yes, Nibbana must be something OTHER than what we call existence here.
It must be? Why?

Could it not also be that Nibbana is nothing other than what we call existence or that what we call existence is not really existence?
I think it could be so :smile:

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nihilism / annihilationism misrepresents the Buddha

Post by Kenshou »

tiltbillings wrote:What is the most basic definition of nibbana given by the Buddha?
Mystical non-dual eternal unity with the transcendental "ground-of-being", right?

No?
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Re: Nihilism / annihilationism misrepresents the Buddha

Post by Individual »

Kenshou wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What is the most basic definition of nibbana given by the Buddha?
Mystical non-dual eternal unity with the transcendental "ground-of-being", right?

No?
ROFL
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Alex,

The death of these bhikkhus was noted in the Sutta Pitaka, but it was left for the commentaries to provide the explanations of kammic retribution which you detail above.

I understand it that kamma and vipaka cease to function once ignorance is destroyed and arahantship is attained. Ignorance sustains the notion of "self", which in turn sustains kamma and vipaka. Kamma does not exist outside of the aggregates, so once the burden of the aggregates is laid down, how can they come back and haunt the arahant in the form of vipaka? Just as a snake is not haunted by the skin it has shed, the arahant is not haunted by the kamma he/she has shed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Do you accept the possibility that kamma done prior to Arhatship may come up for an Arahant?

In any case, where this discussion originated was the fact that even an Arahant or the Buddha can experience physical pain. Not only that, but there are multiple kinds of dukkha, and the Arahat has eliminated only the dukkha due to mental defilements. Dukkha of painful feeling still remains, dukkha of change still remains.

"Whatever is felt is included in suffering." yaṃ kiñci vedayitaṃ taṃ dukkhasmi’nti -SN 36.11(1)

"All formations are stressful." Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti - Dhp 278
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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

gabrielbranbury wrote: I would just stress again that the Buddha identified with Paṭicca-samuppāda and not with aggregates. I dont think the Buddha experienced pain as dukkha but we must agree to disagree there. Gabe

Paṭicca-samuppāda is nothing but conditional interaction of 5 aggregates. Conditionality cannot be without things (aggregates) that are conditioned.

Buddha doesn't experience pain as mental dukkha, right. But as bodily feeling of pain, kāya dukkha vedanā.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Alex123 wrote:Paṭicca-samuppāda is nothing but conditional interaction of 5 aggregates.
The Buddha honored and respected Paṭicca-samuppāda.
"It would be for the sake of perfecting an unperfected aggregate of knowledge and vision of release that I would dwell in dependence on another priest or contemplative, honoring and respecting him. However, in this world with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its priests and contemplatives, its royalty and common-folk, I do not see another priest or contemplative more consummate in knowledge and vision of release than I, on whom I could dwell in dependence, honoring and respecting him.

"What if I were to dwell in dependence on this very Dhamma to which I have fully awakened, honoring and respecting it?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
With Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alex,
Alex123 wrote:Do you accept the possibility that kamma done prior to Arhatship may come up for an Arahant?
Only to the extent that ignorance in a "previous life" may be a contributing factor to the presence of "current life" for the arahant (if we are to speak ontologically rather than phenomenologically).
Alex123 wrote:In any case, where this discussion originated was the fact that even an Arahant or the Buddha can experience physical pain. Not only that, but there are multiple kinds of dukkha, and the Arahat has eliminated only the dukkha due to mental defilements. Dukkha of painful feeling still remains, dukkha of change still remains.

"Whatever is felt is included in suffering." yaṃ kiñci vedayitaṃ taṃ dukkhasmi’nti -SN 36.11(1)

"All formations are stressful." Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti - Dhp 278
We're going in circles. If you want to see my perspective on this see: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... =60#p92743" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which you didn't really address because you went off down a 1-life vs 3-life D.O. tangent, which as I pointed out in response, isn't relevant because regardless of the schema used, avijja, sankhara and their dependent relationship are all partitioned in the same temporal region.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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