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the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread - Page 94 - Dhamma Wheel

the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
theY
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Re: The Path to Nibbana

Postby theY » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:26 pm

Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.

theY
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Postby theY » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:35 pm

This forum have many topic of nibbana. So I make a new topic, that covered all topic. See:
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.

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JMGinPDX
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LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby JMGinPDX » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:50 pm

Hello all -
As mentioned in a previous post, LP Sumedho visited our local center last month and I was able to shoot video and audio of the event and post it to our YouTube channel.

One statement Ven. Sumedho made in the Q&A session surprised me, and I wanted to get input from those more familiar than I am with his teachings and the Dhamma in general.

Go to 26:45 in this video:


In the question, the woman asks if it's true that "consciousness is continuous but not permanent."
Luang Por responds by saying "no, I'm saying that consciousness is permanent."
There's an audible reaction from the audience (I think we had upwards of 200 people there), many of whom, like me, were a bit surprised by this statement.
He expands on his statement in the remainder of his answer, but I wanted to extract this for contemplation and discussion to see what others think and what your understanding is of what he said.

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Sam Vara
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:20 pm


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Aloka
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby Aloka » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:39 pm

.
I think perhaps it depends on what one's actual definition of "consciousness" is.

A little later in the video he seems to be refering to it as "awareness".

More about his use of the word "consciousness" can be found in Ajahn Amaro's introduction to Ajahn Sumedho's book "The Sound of Silence".



Ajahn Amaro comments in that introduction: "Since there is such a variety of meanings contingent upon the one word "consciousness" in this book, it would thus be wise for the reader always to reflect on the circumstances in which the word is being used."



:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aloka
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby Aloka » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:46 pm


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Sam Vara
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:04 pm


JohnK
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby JohnK » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:51 pm

It seems like he is using the English word "consciousness" here as a translation of the deathless (for whatever reason) -- though I only listened to the first minute or so after the question -- perhaps he goes on longer to explain.
[Yes, he goes on to repeat a few times that all sankharas are impermanent; that sense consciousness is impermanent; so he has some other meaning of "consciousness" as he's using it here, so it seems.]
"Why is it, Master Kaccana, that ascetics fight with ascetics?"
"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics" (AN 2: iv, 6, abridged).
Kindly eyes, not verbal daggers.

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Aloka
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby Aloka » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:36 pm


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aflatun
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby aflatun » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:20 am

Interesting offerings from LP Sumedho, thanks for sharing.

In the Thai Forest tradition they tend to say things that can sound as if they're positing a transcendent mind or consciousness at times. This, and a great many other things about the tradition I think, strikes me as similar to Chan/Zen/Seon.

In the latter traditions when you dig a little deeper into what this "Mind" is it starts to look less and less like a transcendent consciousness and more and more like "code" for emptiness, anatta, etc, and this will of course vary with author.

With respect to the Thai Forest tradition I'm not as sure, but many of you all know the tradition way better than I do!

Here's a rough transcription, sorry for any mistakes, and make sure to listen for yourself!

***************************

26:47

Q: Um, I just have a question about um...It just keeps coming up about consciousness. Um, it sounds like what you're saying is that consciousness is continuous, but its not permanent. Is that...correct? And could you maybe expand on that.

LPS: No I'm saying consciousness is permanent.

:::Laughter:::

Its not about permanency, its about reality. Because impermanent and permanent but...Can something impermanent know something that's not impermanent? ...I mean like consciousness as unbounded unmeasurable...it has no beginning or end. All sankharas have beginning and ends. You know all conditions are impermanent. Sensory experience, consciousness through the senses is impermanent. But in terms of consciousness itself, its not. So its... and this is where you have to stop thinking about it and...and accept it. Because its like this. Because when you think about it then you'll start doubting it.

...

28:26

...consciousness through the senses, is impermanent. And so when we experience life only through the senses...through the seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking, feeling, emotional conditions, then, you know, its changing all the time, its very impermanent. All conditions are impermanent. Sabbe sankhara anicca. And so, what is aware of impermanence? Can an impermanent condition be aware of another impermanent condition?

******************************
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Sam Vara
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby Sam Vara » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:18 am


SarathW
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:23 am

A good book to read about this subject.

http://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/upl ... zation.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Spiny Norman
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:51 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Aloka
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby Aloka » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:25 pm


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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby Lucas Oliveira » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:08 pm

I participate in this forum using Google Translator.


Circle5
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby Circle5 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:38 pm

Is he part of the Thai Forest tradition ? If he is, there is nothing to be surprised about. Belief in a self and in consciousness in nibbana is very popular in that tradition. Why ? Because, as Buddha would say, "he has not fully understood it, I say".

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CedarTree
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby CedarTree » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:45 pm

Don't hold out on practice!

Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery in America

Ajahn Chah Associated Monasteries

Practice, Practice, Practice

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Sam Vara
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby Sam Vara » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:53 pm

Whatever he meant by this, let's all wish him a very happy eighty-second birthday - today!

:candle: x82

chownah
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:54 pm


JohnK
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Postby JohnK » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:00 pm

"Why is it, Master Kaccana, that ascetics fight with ascetics?"
"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics" (AN 2: iv, 6, abridged).
Kindly eyes, not verbal daggers.


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