Is Arahant a five aggregate?

[SarathW]

Is Arahant a five aggregate?
The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana.

[Mkoll]

Probably. But they're not "clinging-aggregates" because there is no clinging for an arahant.

[culaavuso]

Is Arahant a five aggregate?
The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana.

And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.[1]

And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining.[2]

Notes
1, 2.
With fuel remaining (sa-upadisesa) and with no fuel remaining (anupadisesa): The analogy here is to a fire. In the first case, the flames are out, but the embers are still glowing. In the second, the fire is so thoroughly out that the embers have grown cold. The "fuel" here is the five aggregates (see the Glossary). While the arahant is still alive, he/she still experiences the five aggregates, but they do not burn with the fires of passion, aversion, or delusion. When the arahant passes away, there is no longer any experience of aggregates here or anywhere else. For a discussion of this point, see The Mind Like Fire Unbound, pp. 21-37.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain

Note what the sutta doesn't say.

The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana

I say no, because the arahant does not aggregate by delineating aggregates... nor do they experience phassa (contact), as per Nanavira's explanation of phassa and its inherent bifurcation between perceived self and other.

(I've argued this elsewhere on the forum and don't intend to do so again, so if this view offends you, please just leave it be... I don't want to bicker.)

"Lord, what is the cause, what the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of form? What is the cause, what the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness?"

"Monk, the four great existents (earth, water, fire, & wind) are the cause, the four great existents the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of form. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of feeling. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of perception. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of fabrications. Name-&-form is the cause, name-&-form the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of consciousness."

Saying, "Very good, lord," the monk... asked him a further question: "Lord, how does self-identity view come about?"

"There is the case, monk, where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

"He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. He assumes fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.

"This, monk, is how self-identity view comes about."

Saying, "Very good, lord," the monk... asked him a further question: "Lord, how does self-identity view no longer come about?"

"There is the case, monk, where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for nobles ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He does not assume feeling to be the self... does not assume perception to be the self... does not assume fabrications to be the self... He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.

"This, monk, is how self-identity view no longer comes about."

Saying, "Very good, lord," the monk... asked him a further question: "What, lord, is the allure of form? What is its drawback? What is the escape from it? What is the allure of feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness? What is its drawback? What is the escape from it?"

"Monk, whatever pleasure & joy arises dependent on form: that is the allure of form. The fact that form is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of form. The subduing of desire & passion, the abandoning of desire & passion for form: that is the escape from form.

"Whatever pleasure & joy arises dependent on feeling: that is the allure of feeling...

"Whatever pleasure & joy arises dependent on perception: that is the allure of perception...

"Whatever pleasure & joy arises dependent on fabrications: that is the allure of fabrications...

"Whatever pleasure & joy arises dependent on consciousness: that is the allure of consciousness. The fact that consciousness is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of consciousness. The subduing of desire & passion, the abandoning of desire & passion for consciousness: that is the escape from consciousness."

Saying, "Very good, lord," the monk... asked him a further question: "Knowing in what way, seeing in what way, is there — with regard to this body endowed with consciousness, and with regard to all external signs — no longer any I-making, or my-making, or obsession with conceit?"

"Monk, one sees any form whatsoever — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — every form, as it actually is with right discernment: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"One sees any feeling whatsoever... any perception whatsoever... any fabrications whatsoever...

"One sees any consciousness whatsoever — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — every consciousness — as it actually is with right discernment: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'"

"Monk, knowing in this way, seeing in this way, there is — with regard to this body endowed with consciousness, and with regard to all external signs — no longer any I-making, or my-making, or obsession with conceit."

Metta,
Retro.

[Mkoll]

Greetings,

His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain

Note what the sutta doesn't say.

The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana

I say no, because the arahant does not aggregate by delineating aggregates... nor do they experience phassa (contact), as per Nanavira's explanation of phassa and its inherent bifurcation between perceived self and other.

Saying that he is cognizant of the aggreable and the disagreeable and sensitive to pleasure and pain means he is aware of different kinds of feeling, correct?

If that is so, how can there be feeling without contact, as per dependent origination? The feeling must be conditioned by something because it is a conditioned thing, and that condition is contact, as per MN 109.

Also, the first noble truth says that the clinging aggregates are to be fully understood. The second noble truth says that craving is to be abandoned (SN 56.11). So the arahant understands the clinging aggregates and abandons craving. The aggregates are understood, but they are not abandoned until parinibbana.

I'm don't want to bicker and I'm not offended. But I'm curious as to how Ven. Nanavira explains this. Maybe you could point me to the relevant thread? Thanks.

[Spiny Norman]

If that is so, how can there be feeling without contact, as per dependent origination?

That's something I struggle with. The suttas describe contact as the meeting of the three ( sense organ, sense object and sense-consciousness ), dependent on which arises feeling.

For example here in the Loka Sutta: "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving."

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mkoll,

If that is so, how can there be feeling without contact, as per dependent origination? The feeling must be conditioned by something because it is a conditioned thing, and that condition is contact, as per MN 109.

Paticcasamuppada details the arising of conditioned (samsaric) experience... and in doing so details the sequential arising of various formed-dhammas (sankhata-dhamma), arising in dependence upon avijja. I contend that as avijja has ceased, there are no longer sankhata-dhammas experienced. What is experienced is as depicted in the sutta above, and that is not dependent upon avijja... thus paticcasamuppada in its forward direction becomes irrelevant. Consider here however paticcasamuppada in its reverse order which sees the cessation of feeling... would you contend that the cessation mode of paticcasamuppada applies only to dead people? If not, what does the cessation of feeling in the reverse order mean? Something to think about anyway, regardless of the conclusions drawn...

But I'm curious as to how Ven. Nanavira explains this. Maybe you could point me to the relevant thread? Thanks.

http://www.nanavira.org/notes-on-dhamma ... tes/phassa

Metta,
Retro.

[Spiny Norman]

Consider here however paticcasamuppada in its reverse order which sees the cessation of feeling... would you contend that the cessation mode of paticcasamuppada applies only to dead people?

It's a tricky question because the reverse mode describes cessation of all the nidanas, including birth and death.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Spiny,

Indeed... and by extension, if one accepts the "3 lifetime" interpretation of paticcasamuppada in its forward direction, would that not commit one to a 3 lifetime model in the other direction too? Again, something to think about, regardless of the conclusions drawn...

(Apologies if I've deviated from Sarath's aggregates question... )

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

It must, of course, be remembered that phassanirodha in the arahat does not mean that experience as such (pañcakkhandhā) is at an end. But, also, there is no experience without phassa. In other words, to the extent that we can still speak of an eye, of forms, and of eye-consciousness (seeing)—e.g. Samvijjati kho āvuso Bhagavato cakkhu, passati Bhagavā cakkhunā rūpam, chandarāgo Bhagavato n'atthi, suvimuttacitto Bhagavā ('The Auspicious One, friend, possesses an eye; the Auspicious One sees visible forms with the eye; desire-&-lust for the Auspicious One there is not; the Auspicious One is wholly freed in heart (citta)' (Cf. ATTĀ [c].)) (Salāyatana Samy. xviii,5 <S.iv,164>)—to that extent we can still speak of phassa. But it must no longer be regarded as contact with me (or with him, or with somebody). There is, and there is not, contact in the case of the arahat, just as there is, and there is not, consciousness. [emphasis added] http://www.nanavira.org/notes-on-dhamma ... tes/phassa

This more or less makes sense, but the essay in which this footnote, a moment of clarity, is found is a tortured effort.

[mikenz66]

Returning to the original question:

The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana.

From suttas such as this one, apparently yes:

What do you think, friend Yamaka, do you regard form as the Tathagata?” - “No, friend.” - “Do you regard feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness as the Tathagata?” - “No, friend.”

“What do you think, friend Yamaka, do you regard the Tathagata as in form?” - “No, friend.” - “Do you regard the Tathagata as apart from form?” - “No, friend.” - “Do you regard the Tathagata as in feeling? As apart from feeling? As in perception? As apart from perception? As in volitional formations? As apart from volitional formations? As in consciousness? As apart from consciousness?” - “No, friend.”

“What do you think, friend Yamaka, do you regard form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness taken together as the Tathagata?” - “No, friend.”

What do you think, friend Yamaka, do you regard the Tathagata as one who is without form, without feeling, without perception, without volitional formations, without consciousness?” - “No, friend.”
http://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.85

Bhikkhu Bodhi comments:

The first three alternatives—conceiving the aggregates individually as the Tathāgata, the Tathāgata as within the aggregates, and the Tathāgata as apart from the aggregates—correspond to the first three modes of conceiving in the Mūlapariyāya Sutta (MN I 1 (MN 1)), which are set in relation to the sense bases at 35:30, SN 35:31. The fourth position conceives the aggregates collectively as the Tathāgata (perhaps a view of supervenience); the fifth conceives the Tathāgata as entirely transcendent, without any essential relation to the aggregates. These modes of conceiving can also be correlated with the twenty types of identity view.

Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

How did you come to the conclusion that the sutta says "yes", when the sutta extract provided only says "no" to a lot of wrong views?

Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

Seems rather clear to me:

What do you think, friend Yamaka, do you regard the Tathagata as one who is without form, without feeling, without perception, without volitional formations, without consciousness?” - “No, friend.”

Denying that the Thanagata has form, feelings, sounds, as you say, like wrong view, doesn't it?


Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

I can see how you see it that way. I interpreted them as a series of propositions, covering all possible combinations of how one might perceive the Tathagata (as a being) in relation to aggregates... all of which were wrong, none of which provide a "yes" to how the Tathagata should be regarded in relation to aggregates.

But, friend, the instructed noble disciple, who is a seer of the noble ones … does not regard form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form.

He whose cankers are destroyed and who is not attached to food, whose object is the Void, the Unconditioned Freedom — his path cannot be traced, like that of birds in the air.

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Greetings Mike,

I can see how you see it that way. I interpreted them as a series of propositions, covering all possible combinations of how one might perceive the Tathagata (as a being) in relation to aggregates... all of which were wrong, none of which provide a "yes" to how the Tathagata should be regarded in relation to aggregates.

But, friend, the instructed noble disciple, who is a seer of the noble ones … does not regard form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form.

He whose cankers are destroyed and who is not attached to food, whose object is the Void, the Unconditioned Freedom — his path cannot be traced, like that of birds in the air.

Metta,
Retro.

As Nanavira states: It must, of course, be remembered that phassanirodha in the arahat does not mean that experience as such (pañcakkhandhā) is at an end. But, also, there is no experience without phassa.With the arahant/tathagata there is simply no further relating to these processes in terms of the fuel of identification conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.