the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

[Alex123]

What's the difference between destroyed and not demonstrating any discernable activity???

Big difference. Our current instruments might not have been able to detect all the minor functions of the neurons and cells in the brain during NDE.

In any case, the patients were able to tell this when they came out from their NDE and had functional brain and body.

Regarding hallucinations- Nope, but what's your point? I could equally argue that any and all realisations you have had are just a migraine

Better understanding and wisdom is not migraine.

[Alex123]

There is degree of wrongness and probability.

In another universe there is a version of you arguing the case for rebirth.

I try to keep an open mind to both possibilities. It is just that right now I cannot prove that rebirth exists.

[samseva]

As for these people not dying. I think you'll find that they did - at least so far as EEG, encephalographs, and all the other identifiable signs of life were concerned. I'll root out the links I am referring to and post them here

The patient is pronounced dead according to medical criteria. Not too long ago, people were buried alive because, from their limited knowledge or instruments, they were thought dead. The person might be considered dead, but his life faculty still not entirely cut off, which maybe is something instruments can't detect.

[acinteyyo]

The ultimate goal of the Buddhist path isn't clear.

I think it is and the Buddha declared it.

Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M 22)
"Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress."

The goal of the Buddhist path is to put an end to suffering and stress. That's all.

Pretty straightforward if you asked me.

best wishes, acinteyyo

[Myotai]

As for these people not dying. I think you'll find that they did - at least so far as EEG, encephalographs, and all the other identifiable signs of life were concerned. I'll root out the links I am referring to and post them here

The patient is pronounced dead according to medical criteria. Not too long ago, people were buried alive because, from their limited knowledge or instruments, they were thought dead. The person might be considered dead, but his life faculty still not entirely cut off, which maybe is something instruments can't detect.

Ad infinitum?

Ok, I also posit that at some point in the future science will be able prove dualism as factual....same argument. Except you're argument is speculative. Mine is using evidence.

[Lazy_eye]

Zenainder, thank you for posting the above. Based on the transcribed portion, I don't see a divergence between Thanissaro's view and what I take to be the standard Theravada view. He states clearly that there is "no activity" after entering paranibbana, and that activity of the awakened mind is due to the kammic "remainder."

So the notion that Thanissaro is some sort of eternalist in disguise does not seem supported.

It's been a long time since the OP was posted. I think at the time I was under the impression that there might exist Theravada antecedents for later developments. Even if that were the case, this does not appear to be an example.

[Goofaholix]

In the Sutta quoted above, the Buddha talks about a fire that goes out and asks "where did it go" and then refers to the idea that the fire did not disappear, just that it is no longer held by its fuel. Thanissaro Bhikkhu argues that it is like a fire no longer dependent upon the fuel (of a body or the 5 aggregates).

Understanding that the mind is no longer held/bound by it's fuel is just understanding that the mind is no longer held/bound by it's fuel, no more no less.

Maybe this metaphor uses similar terminology to a pantheistic one, I don't know, but I don't really see what the connection is to pantheism other than the wishful thinking of a pantheist.

[samseva]

As for these people not dying. I think you'll find that they did - at least so far as EEG, encephalographs, and all the other identifiable signs of life were concerned. I'll root out the links I am referring to and post them here

The patient is pronounced dead according to medical criteria. Not too long ago, people were buried alive because, from their limited knowledge or instruments, they were thought dead. The person might be considered dead, but his life faculty still not entirely cut off, which maybe is something instruments can't detect.

Ad infinitum?

Ok, I also posit that at some point in the future science will be able prove dualism as factual....same argument. Except you're argument is speculative. Mine is using evidence.

No, it isn't ad infinitum. It simply is the case that medical technology doesn't have absolute knowledge, which I think is a rather convincing and non-speculative argument, and which is even illustrated with actual historical events.

[Alex123]

Progressive scientific discoveries shrink the gaps, but it seems unlikely that science will ever be able to prove conclusively that these things don't exist.

So the burden of proof is on those who postulate unprovable/unfalsifiable hypothesis that have less probability of being true,

So increasingly the universe looks like a really weird place where nothing should surprise us. It may be that rebirth just isn't weird enough to be credible.

Yes, in EXTREME cases weird things happen.

By extreme cases I mean: at sub-atomic scales (QM). Or at the level of galaxies (dark matter exerts effects). Or at speed of light (or even faster). At the moment of big bang (>=13.7 billion years ago) or after universe dies in heat death and entropy reaches maximum (10^100 or more years into the future). Or at temperatures at or below -459.67 degrees Fahrenheit.

But none of these are really relevant to us. So classical rules still hold at OUR scale.

[Lazy_eye]

It seems to me that if rebirth is central to the Dhamma, then one should have a very strong conviction that it is true -- not just a belief that it might be possible because science hasn't disproven it, or because the universe is a weird place and thus conceivably it might be true. That seems a remarkably weak foundation on which to build a life-changing religious practice.

Lots of things are possible -- but we don't necessarily make major life decisions every time we run into a non-zero probability.

That's why I think this whole line of argument, NDEs, Ian Stevenson, and so on, is something of a red herring. All it does is provide some (weak) talking points in discussions with the scientifically minded. What it doesn't do is show where the strong conviction in rebirth comes from -- how and why someone develops that conviction, to the point that they are willing to shape their entire way of thinking around it. Is there anyone on this board who would say they took up the Buddhist path because they read some anecdotes from Stevenson or some book about NDEs? Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that it's got to go deeper than that.

If I'm not mistaken, there are Buddhists who practice with single-minded devotion day and night because they believe that otherwise they will be reborn again and again in samsara; this is sometimes referred to as "practicing as though your hair is on fire." Where does that intensity of conviction come from? Surely not from some gaps here and there in science.

[Spiny Norman]

But none of these are really relevant to us. So classical rules still hold at OUR scale.

Yes, at our everyday scale what we experience is based on Newtonian mechanics. But our scale doesn't exist in isolation, and so there is a lot of weird stuff going on "behind the scenes", beyond the range of our senses.

[Spiny Norman]

Lots of things are possible -- but we don't necessarily make major life decisions every time we run into a non-zero probability.

That's true, but my head doesn't always agree with my heart. I guess I find life more interesting when I allow for possibilities and allow my imagination a little room. I find relentless rationalism rather claustrophobic and frankly a little boring.

[daverupa]

I guess I find life more interesting when...

Liking: turns out one of two ways... and, foster appropriate attention towards boredom...

Did you know? Vivid imagination can create the same neural structures that are associated with actual event-memories... fascinating stuff...

[Myotai]

I guess I find life more interesting when...

Liking: turns out one of two ways... and, foster appropriate attention towards boredom...

Did you know? Vivid imagination can create the same neural structures that are associated with actual event-memories... fascinating stuff...

The brain really isn't very clever is it!?

[Lazy_eye]

That's true, but my head doesn't always agree with my heart. I guess I find life more interesting when I allow for possibilities and allow my imagination a little room.

Me too, but my question would be whether this is enough. Isn't a stronger sort of conviction needed in order to develop the motivation to cultivate the path?

The path, after all, is a path to (total) cessation. For such an endeavor to make sense, a few things are needed. One is the view that cessation is desirable; another is a serious enough worry that cessation won't happen automatically on its own, as a result of physical death.

That's in direct opposition to the common viewpoint, which is that cessation is not desirable but nevertheless inevitable.