Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

SarathW wrote:Thanks CLW-
Is this referring to sexual intercourse in Five Precepts ?

Its about sexual intercourse in general, and that of it being discouraged

The 5 precepts are about having sex in a non-harmful way for householders

So I concluded, unless you are observing ten precepts you will not be able to attain Fifth Jhana!
What do you think?

SarathW wrote:Ok I agree that sex and gold and silver is necessary for the householder.

What about alcohol?

The point what I am trying to make here is consuming alcohol is against Buddha’s teaching for a house holder or a monk.

agreed.

SarathW wrote:So I concluded, unless you are observing ten precepts you will not be able to attain Fifth Jhana!
What do you think?

i cannot see how violating the Eight Preceptand wearing an earring or other jewellery would have a direct effect to prevent a dedicated meditator from reaching any state. i can however see that vanity and self conceit could prevent one from attaining jhana.

SarathW wrote:So I concluded, unless you are observing ten precepts you will not be able to attain Fifth Jhana!
What do you think?

I would agree

i cannot see how violating the Eight Preceptand wearing an earring or other jewellery would have a direct effect to prevent a dedicated meditator from reaching any state. i can however see that vanity and self conceit could prevent one from attaining jhana.

And so we decorate ourselves

including a wedding ring?

kitztack wrote:including a wedding ring?

maybe so

Dear Sarath,

you need a luck to see an enlighted monk. did i ask you to worship him? i didnt ask anyone to worship. when upatissa, kolitha sae VEN ASSAJI, there were kind of attracted to his appearance coz he was an enlighted person. i wanted you all to see, at least if you have enough skillfulness(merits) you will be atttracted to him. if not you will not. i think you need to learn more about SILA/ SAMADHI ..etc. i reccommend you to read books of VEN. AJAHN CHAH / MAHASI SAYADAW / AJAHN DUNE ATULO etc. we cannot argue on DHYANA and we cannot tel that we need this kind of SILA to attain partuclar DHYANA. we need to go beyone basic 7 percepts. dont take 10 percepts at once. coz LOBHA,DWESHA,MOHA are in our minds(Prutagjana) . its a vast subject. you need to practice and see. i think there's no need of arguing on ALCOHOL. you should understand that its not an Evil deed by now.

S.N.Goenka says, abstinance from alcohol is a part of that Noble Eight Fold Path.



Vipassana Meditation S. N. Goenka - 2 Day .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlxXCo4hftQ

Further support from Sutta:

AN 8.25: Mahānāma Sutta wrote:
Kittāvatā pana, bhante, upāsako sīlavā hotī”ti? “Yato kho, mahānāma, upāsako pāṇātipātā paṭivirato hoti, adinnādānā paṭivirato hoti, kāmesumicchācārā paṭivirato hoti, musāvādā paṭivirato hoti, surāme­raya­majja­pamā­daṭṭhānā paṭivirato hoti; ettāvatā kho, mahānāma, upāsako sīlavā hotī”ti.
...
In what way, Bhante, is a lay follower virtuous?”

“When, Mahānāma, a lay follower abstains from the destruction of life, from taking what is not given, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, and from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness, in that way a lay follower is virtuous.”

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 87#p280084

BuddhaSoup wrote:
However, can in your opinion a half a glass of red wine for health reasons alone be medicinal, and an ethical exception to the rules?

Happy to hear from anyone on this subject...
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Culaavusso wrote:

A few points worth considering:

First, much of the benefit of red wine is attributed to resveratrol which can be found in red grapes without consuming alcohol. In addition to red grapes and red wine, there are dietary supplements of resveratrol as an option as well. See Resveratrol Supplements for more information.

Second, some researchers are still not convinced about the validity of these studies (see Resveratrol: Don't Buy the Hype for an example).

Third, reduced stress from increased meditation practice can itself produce a lot of the beneficial consequences in terms of heart health. See Meditation may reduce death, heart attack and stroke in heart patients. This is interesting in that using alcohol as a coping mechanism for stress in the absence of better methods may explain some of its efficacy.

Finally, it's worth carefully considering the motivations and influence of such a decision on mental state. If there are valid and well founded medical reasons for such a decision, that's a very different matter from a situation where the mind uses poorly established research findings as an excuse to continue behavior that is enjoyable or alleviates anxiety and fears of illness and death. Whatever you choose, it's worth carefully examining your motivation to ensure that unwholesome mental states aren't being reinforced through the decision.
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BuddhaSoup wrote:
Excellent response, thanks, Culaavuso.

I had though that resveratrol was a product of fermented red wine, and not just the juice of the grape. If there are ways to get the same (claimed) health benefits from drinking a nonalcoholic drink, even grape juice itself, then that for me is the way to go, and I avoid even the repugnant idea of being an 8 preceptor and buying the occasional (medicinal) bottle of Malbec. Glad for this timely info!

In a strange way, the renunciation of items that for most of my life were commonplace and even valued has helped me with samma mindfulness and meditation. This practice brings home daily not just a sense of renunciation, but also a sense of just how much one does, or has done in one's life, that is part of that addiction to sense pleasure...that roller coaster of sense pleasures that just repeats like an unhealthy feedback loop.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 85#p281638
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Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu
Anumodana.

In this thread two members, apparently well fluent in Pali, analyze the meaning of the fifth precept. One comes to the conclusion that it means to refrain from getting intoxicated from drinking alcoholic beverages. The other concludes that the wording implies complete abstinence.

It's an excellent discussion. Personally I'm more convinced by the first explanation, compared to the common understanding of "Don't drink alcohol at all, no matter how small, whether you derive sensory pleasure from it or not, whether you are attached to it or not".

Here in israel they always lower the amount of alcohol that is legal for a person to have in his blood while driving - now its enough to drink a tiny amount of wine and drive - for it to be illegal

when we drink a little - does that mean we are a little less heedful - that we might be a little less cautious of what we say ? maybe i wont murder someone but i might insult someone - and if i wont insult someone i might miss a chance to help someone - maybe a tiny bit of alcohol makes us a tiny bit less moral ?

waterchan wrote:In this thread two members, apparently well fluent in Pali, analyze the meaning of the fifth precept. One comes to the conclusion that it means to refrain from getting intoxicated from drinking alcoholic beverages. The other concludes that the wording implies complete abstinence.

It's an excellent discussion. Personally I'm more convinced by the first explanation, compared to the common understanding of "Don't drink alcohol at all, no matter how small, whether you derive sensory pleasure from it or not, whether you are attached to it or not".

That can depend on the person. When I have one glass of wine I get a taste for it and end up getting drunk, so I can't just have one and have to not drink at all if I want to practice.

Ten arguments for not drinking alcohol:

1. Extremely subtle perception is necessary for attaining the Truth of the Dhamma. Alcohol perturbs it.
2. The Stream-Enterer was said by Buddha to practice all 5 Precepts (SN 12.41).
3. Anyone who wishes to cut through the defilements and release all cravings must learn to practice mindfulness at all times. Even when one is only slightly tipsy, the mind can no longer be trusted.
4. Heedfulness must be high always if one wants to perfect one's morality.
5. In my experience, alcohol inhibits deep Meditation for days after it has been consumed.
6. A commitment to not drink alcohol is also an exercise in overcoming peer pressure.
7. A commitment to not drink alcohol is also a vehicle towards associating with people of integrity (sappurisamseva), since those people who pressure you into drinking are probably unwholesome influences anyways. Valuable friends will be ok with this commitment.
8. Appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) is inhibited with alcohol. Both 7. and 8. are essential factors for Stream Entry.
9. A person that openly does not drink serves as a role model to others who would prefer not to drink but haven't yet mustered the courage to make the commitment.
10. When one sacrifices a "rule of society" (eg "one ought to have a pint or a glass of wine when going out socially") with a Precept, one further strengthens one's commitment in the Triple Gem.

I share these arguments, since they are the ones that finally drove me to undertake the Fifth Precept last weekend.