Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby vishuroshan » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:17 am

dear Sarath, i didnt want to argue. i wanted to give you a chance which i didnt give everyone. but you missed it. but not matter how hard you try to prove your side, one day you will identify that this is the real dhamma. those people who worship, BO TREES , STATUES, PAGODAs will never know the real DHAMMA of Buddha.
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby purple planet » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:04 pm

just saw this link of s.n goenka words against drinking

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:39 am

vishuroshan wrote:Dear sarath,
i have already told you that drinking ALCOHOL is not good as a buddhis he/she should be mindful everytime. its not the problem. thos who were alcoholics think thet they will go to Hell just because they drank alcohol and they will be worried. its wrong. this is what i wanted to correct. its not in the budda deshana under the percepts. under NOBEL EIGHTFOLD PATH.


Hi Viran

Can you clarify some thing for me from that monk please?
Could you ask him whether he undertook ten precepts when he became a monk.
If he says “yes”, then ask him whether the ten precepts are in accordance with N8P.
If he say “no”, then you ask him why he undertook the ten precepts.
Please note that monks are meant to follow N8P.
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby vishuroshan » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:48 am

dear sarath, thank you for your message. listen to those dhamma discussions more than 10 times. then you will begin to understand little by little. you will not understand it at once. he was meditating in ATHDALAGALA AARANYA(Anuradapura). it inside ATHDALAGALA forest. obviously when you are practicing meditation everyday, sometimes for about 15 hours constantly(as per thero), you will automaticaly undertake all the percepts. all 10 percepts. coz SILA is the foundation. without that you cannot develop Samadhi/Pragna. its not about the rules and regulations, watching your own mind is the most important thing. when you directly watch your mind, you will undertake all the percepts. ( CHETANA is the kamma). you will eat carefully, without craving, you will sleep carefully without craving, you will talk without craving..etc. so obviously you will go beyond the basic sila. when you feel greedy you will know, when you get angry you wil know. when you are jelous you will know. look at your mind. dont cling to rules blindly.
hope you understand.
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby culaavuso » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:07 am

AN8.39
AN8.39: Abhisanda Sutta wrote:Furthermore, abandoning the use of intoxicants, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking intoxicants. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the fifth gift, the fifth great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans. And this is the eighth reward of merit, reward of skillfulness, nourishment of happiness, celestial, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable, pleasurable, & appealing; to welfare & to happiness.


(Similarly with the rest of the five precepts)
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby pilgrim » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:31 am

The precept is against the "use of intoxicants". The use of intoxicants is to get intoxicated. I believe in ancient India, there is no concept of social drinking or medical use of alcohol. One consumes alcohol for the purpose of being merrily intoxicated. If one takes an absolute interpretation of this precept, that one should not consume even a single drop of alcohol even if it does not cause intoxication, then it appears irrational as it would prohibit a range of harmless consumption from eating Christmas cake to even the use of nail polish remover.

Having said that, it makes sense to reduce or to avoid drinking alcohol altogether, if not for the purpose of keeping this precept, but at least for the reason of not starting on the path to intoxication. "By drinking even a small amount, in the long run you develop a craving for alcohol. You don't realize it but you take a first step to addiction" ~ Goenka
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby vishuroshan » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:39 am

no need of alcohol for people to get intoxiated,they already intoxicated by Wealth, Beauty,Power, Money,Skills, Positions.. etc. we should not argue on Alcohol. we need to think about the other intoxication.
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:15 am

Hi Viran

All the things you mentioned are going hand in hand with alcohol.

I really do not want to bring all other issues concerning this monk.
It is not fair to people in this forum who can’t understand Sinhalese.
It will not bring any good to me or forum members either.

By answering to other post you may gain further knowledge.

Goodluck to you any way.
I hope, at least you have given up alcohol.
Metta
:meditate:
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby vishuroshan » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:29 am

dear sarath,
as you listen to dhamma discourses of VEN.VAJIRA BUDDHI, you must have understood that his dhamma is aimed on Nibbana. not just about alcohol. i think others also understood something from our conversation as we talked about SILA, MEDITATION..etc. and yes i have given up. i hve never been a Hardcore drinker. and never smoked before.

its better if you can meet VEN.VAJIRA BUDDHI and ask him if you have any questons. if you need pictures of him, i can send you his photos. its worth to see a pic of that monk.

Metta
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:35 pm

vishuroshan wrote:dear Sarath, i didnt want to argue. i wanted to give you a chance which i didnt give everyone. but you missed it. but not matter how hard you try to prove your side, one day you will identify that this is the real dhamma. those people who worship, BO TREES , STATUES, PAGODAs will never know the real DHAMMA of Buddha.


Hi Viran
Your teacher asked you to not worship Bo Tree, Statues and Pagodas.****
Now you are trying to send this monk’s photo’s to everyone.
What do you want us to do with his photo?
Worship?
I think you have to spent some time practicing what you are preaching!

==========
***PS:
By the way this monk's teaching about Bo Tree etc. are extremist.
:jedi:
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:08 pm

Its not bad in of itself but it does lead to unskillful behaviour


Also, when you drink alcohol, you automatically fall away from the NEFP and back into dukkha
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:15 pm

"Monks, there are these four obscurations of the sun and moon, obscured by which the sun and moon don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle. Which four?

"Clouds are an obscuration of the sun and moon, obscured by which the sun and moon don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.

"Fog is an obscuration...

"Smoke and dust is an obscuration...

"Rahu, the king of the asuras,[1] is an obscuration of the sun and moon, obscured by which the sun and moon don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.

"These are the four obscurations of the sun and moon, obscured by which the sun and moon don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.

"In the same way, there are four obscurations of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle. Which four?

"There are some contemplatives and brahmans who drink alcohol and fermented liquor, who don't refrain from drinking alcohol and fermented liquor. This is the first obscuration of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.

"There are some contemplatives and brahmans who engage in sexual intercourse, who don't refrain from sexual intercourse. This is the second obscuration of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


I think the comparison of alcohol to fog is a good one here
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:22 pm

Interestingly this sutta is about someone who died and was declared a stream-enterer by the Buddha, despite having drank

[At Kapilavasthu] Now at that time Sarakaani the Sakyan, who had died, was proclaimed by the Blessed One to be a Stream-Winner, not subject to rebirth in states of woe, assured of enlightenment. At this, a number of the Sakyans, whenever they met each other or came together in company, were indignant and angry, and said scornfully: "A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Stream-Winner, if the Blessed One has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be Stream-Winner... assured of enlightenment! Why, Sarakaani failed in his training and took to drink!"

[Mahaanaama the Sakyan reported this to the Buddha who said:] "Mahaanaama, a lay-follower who has for a long time taken refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha — how could he go to states of woe? [And this can be truly said of Sarakaani the Sakyan.] How could he go to states of woe?

"Mahaanaama, take the case of a man endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, declaring 'He is the Blessed One...,'[1] the Dhamma... the Sangha... He is joyous and swift in wisdom, one who has gained release.[2] By the destruction of the cankers he has by his own realization gained the cankerless heart's release, the release through wisdom, in this very life, and abides in it. The man is entirely released from the hell-state, from rebirth as an animal,[3] he is free from the realm of hungry ghosts, fully freed from the downfall, the evil way, from states of woe.

"Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha... the Dhamma... the Sangha... he is joyous and swift in wisdom but has not gained release. Having destroyed the five lower fetters,[4] he is reborn spontaneously[5] where he will attain Nibbaana without returning from that world. That man is entirely released from... states of woe.

"Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. But he is not joyous in wisdom and has not gained release. Yet by destroying three fetters[6] and weakening lust, hatred and delusion, he is a Once-returner, who will return once more to this world and put an end to suffering. That man is entirely freed from... states of woe.

"Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. But he is not joyous in wisdom and has not gained release. Yet by destroying three fetters he is a Stream-Winner, not subject to rebirth in states of woe, assured of enlightenment. That man is entirely freed... from states of woe.

"Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But perhaps he has these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. And the things proclaimed by the Tathaagata are moderately approved by him with insight. That man does not go to the realm of hungry ghosts, to the downfall, to the evil way, to states of woe.

"Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to... states of woe.[7]

"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan! Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death.'[8]



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby Babadhari » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:32 pm

clw_uk wrote:

"There are some contemplatives and brahmans who drink alcohol and fermented liquor, who don't refrain from drinking alcohol and fermented liquor. This is the first obscuration of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.

"There are some contemplatives and brahmans who engage in sexual intercourse, who don't refrain from sexual intercourse. This is the second obscuration of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


I think the comparison of alcohol to fog is a good one here


this appears to state that sex is just as big a hindrance as alcohol, does it not? i dont know if this was mentioned in the thread 'whats wrong with sex for lay person?'
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:33 pm

Thanks CLW-
Is this referring to sexual intercourse in Five Precepts ?
:thinking:
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby Babadhari » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:42 pm

Obscured by passion & aversion
— some brahmans & contemplatives —
people entrenched in ignorance,
delighting in endearing forms,
drink alcohol & fermented liquor,
engage in sexual intercourse,

unwise, consent to gold & silver,
live by means of wrong livelihood
— some brahmans & contemplatives.
These are said to be obscurations
by the Awakened One
,
kinsman of the Sun.

Because of these obscurations
some brahmans & contemplatives
don't glow,don't shine,are impure,dusty,dead.

Covered with darkness,
slaves to craving
, led on,
they swell the terrible charnel ground,
they grab at further becoming.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

i dont think this is aimed at the householder but it does state these quite explicitly to be unwholesome for one attempting to free themselves from samsara
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby SarathW » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:02 am

So drinking alcohol is OK for the house holder if he is not intend to attain Nirvana?

That means s/he is not a Buddhist!
:thinking:
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby Babadhari » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:15 am

kitztack wrote:
Obscured by passion & aversion
— some brahmans & contemplatives —
people entrenched in ignorance,
delighting in endearing forms,
drink alcohol & fermented liquor,
engage in sexual intercourse,

unwise, consent to gold & silver,
live by means of wrong livelihood
— some brahmans & contemplatives.
These are said to be obscurations
by the Awakened One
,
kinsman of the Sun.

Because of these obscurations
some brahmans & contemplatives
don't glow,don't shine,are impure,dusty,dead.

Covered with darkness,
slaves to craving
, led on,
they swell the terrible charnel ground,
they grab at further becoming.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

i dont think this is aimed at the householder but it does state these quite explicitly to be unwholesome for one attempting to free themselves from samsara


hi sarath

i was stating that i didnt know to whom the Buddha was speaking. sex is classed here as big a hindrance as alcohol and gold and silver.
i dont think it can be wrong for a householder with children to feed to acquire gold and silver, do you.? does that mean they are not a buddhist.?
to brahmans, contemplatives and practicing ascetics these things should be of no use to them.
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby SarathW » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:31 am

Ok I agree that sex and gold and silver is necessary for the householder.

What about alcohol?

The point what I am trying to make here is consuming alcohol is against Buddha’s teaching for a house holder or a monk.
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:37 am

SarathW wrote:So drinking alcohol is OK for the house holder if he is not intend to attain Nirvana?

That means s/he is not a Buddhist!
:thinking:



Not necessarily

If you intend for nibbana then drink and sex has to be given up of course, however you can live a wholesome life as a householder while having sex

I would say you could live as a wholesome householder by drinking alcohol as well, however its much harder as being drunk fogs the mind and its easier to be unwholesome when drunk.

So one glass of wine wont necessarily lead to acting in an unwholesome way but being wasted probably will
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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