Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:40 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks CLW-
Is this referring to sexual intercourse in Five Precepts ?
:thinking:



Its about sexual intercourse in general, and that of it being discouraged

The 5 precepts are about having sex in a non-harmful way for householders
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby SarathW » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:48 am

So I concluded, unless you are observing ten precepts you will not be able to attain Fifth Jhana!
What do you think?
:shrug:
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby Babadhari » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:00 am

SarathW wrote:Ok I agree that sex and gold and silver is necessary for the householder.

What about alcohol?

The point what I am trying to make here is consuming alcohol is against Buddha’s teaching for a house holder or a monk.


agreed.

SarathW wrote:So I concluded, unless you are observing ten precepts you will not be able to attain Fifth Jhana!
What do you think?
:shrug:


i cannot see how violating the Eight Preceptand wearing an earring or other jewellery would have a direct effect to prevent a dedicated meditator from reaching any state. i can however see that vanity and self conceit could prevent one from attaining jhana.
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:07 am

SarathW wrote:So I concluded, unless you are observing ten precepts you will not be able to attain Fifth Jhana!
What do you think?
:shrug:



I would agree
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:08 am

i cannot see how violating the Eight Preceptand wearing an earring or other jewellery would have a direct effect to prevent a dedicated meditator from reaching any state. i can however see that vanity and self conceit could prevent one from attaining jhana.



And so we decorate ourselves
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby Babadhari » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:37 am

including a wedding ring?
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:15 am

kitztack wrote:including a wedding ring?



maybe so
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby vishuroshan » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:10 am

Dear Sarath,

you need a luck to see an enlighted monk. did i ask you to worship him? i didnt ask anyone to worship. when upatissa, kolitha sae VEN ASSAJI, there were kind of attracted to his appearance coz he was an enlighted person. i wanted you all to see, at least if you have enough skillfulness(merits) you will be atttracted to him. if not you will not. i think you need to learn more about SILA/ SAMADHI ..etc. i reccommend you to read books of VEN. AJAHN CHAH / MAHASI SAYADAW / AJAHN DUNE ATULO etc. we cannot argue on DHYANA and we cannot tel that we need this kind of SILA to attain partuclar DHYANA. we need to go beyone basic 7 percepts. dont take 10 percepts at once. coz LOBHA,DWESHA,MOHA are in our minds(Prutagjana) . its a vast subject. you need to practice and see. i think there's no need of arguing on ALCOHOL. you should understand that its not an Evil deed by now.
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby SarathW » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:04 pm

S.N.Goenka says, abstinance from alcohol is a part of that Noble Eight Fold Path.



Vipassana Meditation S. N. Goenka - 2 Day .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlxXCo4hftQ
:meditate:
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby SarathW » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:08 am

Further support from Sutta:

AN 8.25: Mahānāma Sutta wrote:
Kittāvatā pana, bhante, upāsako sīlavā hotī”ti? “Yato kho, mahānāma, upāsako pāṇātipātā paṭivirato hoti, adinnādānā paṭivirato hoti, kāmesumicchācārā paṭivirato hoti, musāvādā paṭivirato hoti, surāme­raya­majja­pamā­daṭṭhānā paṭivirato hoti; ettāvatā kho, mahānāma, upāsako sīlavā hotī”ti.
...
In what way, Bhante, is a lay follower virtuous?”

“When, Mahānāma, a lay follower abstains from the destruction of life, from taking what is not given, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, and from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness, in that way a lay follower is virtuous.”

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19899&p=280087#p280084
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby SarathW » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:45 pm

BuddhaSoup wrote:
However, can in your opinion a half a glass of red wine for health reasons alone be medicinal, and an ethical exception to the rules?

Happy to hear from anyone on this subject...
=============================

Culaavusso wrote:

A few points worth considering:

First, much of the benefit of red wine is attributed to resveratrol which can be found in red grapes without consuming alcohol. In addition to red grapes and red wine, there are dietary supplements of resveratrol as an option as well. See Resveratrol Supplements for more information.

Second, some researchers are still not convinced about the validity of these studies (see Resveratrol: Don't Buy the Hype for an example).

Third, reduced stress from increased meditation practice can itself produce a lot of the beneficial consequences in terms of heart health. See Meditation may reduce death, heart attack and stroke in heart patients. This is interesting in that using alcohol as a coping mechanism for stress in the absence of better methods may explain some of its efficacy.

Finally, it's worth carefully considering the motivations and influence of such a decision on mental state. If there are valid and well founded medical reasons for such a decision, that's a very different matter from a situation where the mind uses poorly established research findings as an excuse to continue behavior that is enjoyable or alleviates anxiety and fears of illness and death. Whatever you choose, it's worth carefully examining your motivation to ensure that unwholesome mental states aren't being reinforced through the decision.
==================

BuddhaSoup wrote:
Excellent response, thanks, Culaavuso.

I had though that resveratrol was a product of fermented red wine, and not just the juice of the grape. If there are ways to get the same (claimed) health benefits from drinking a nonalcoholic drink, even grape juice itself, then that for me is the way to go, and I avoid even the repugnant idea of being an 8 preceptor and buying the occasional (medicinal) bottle of Malbec. Glad for this timely info!

In a strange way, the renunciation of items that for most of my life were commonplace and even valued has helped me with samma mindfulness and meditation. This practice brings home daily not just a sense of renunciation, but also a sense of just how much one does, or has done in one's life, that is part of that addiction to sense pleasure...that roller coaster of sense pleasures that just repeats like an unhealthy feedback loop.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20085#p281638
=============

Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu
Anumodana.
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby waterchan » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:01 am

In this thread two members, apparently well fluent in Pali, analyze the meaning of the fifth precept. One comes to the conclusion that it means to refrain from getting intoxicated from drinking alcoholic beverages. The other concludes that the wording implies complete abstinence.

It's an excellent discussion. Personally I'm more convinced by the first explanation, compared to the common understanding of "Don't drink alcohol at all, no matter how small, whether you derive sensory pleasure from it or not, whether you are attached to it or not".
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby purple planet » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:05 am

Here in israel they always lower the amount of alcohol that is legal for a person to have in his blood while driving - now its enough to drink a tiny amount of wine and drive - for it to be illegal

when we drink a little - does that mean we are a little less heedful - that we might be a little less cautious of what we say ? maybe i wont murder someone but i might insult someone - and if i wont insult someone i might miss a chance to help someone - maybe a tiny bit of alcohol makes us a tiny bit less moral ?
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:50 am

waterchan wrote:In this thread two members, apparently well fluent in Pali, analyze the meaning of the fifth precept. One comes to the conclusion that it means to refrain from getting intoxicated from drinking alcoholic beverages. The other concludes that the wording implies complete abstinence.

It's an excellent discussion. Personally I'm more convinced by the first explanation, compared to the common understanding of "Don't drink alcohol at all, no matter how small, whether you derive sensory pleasure from it or not, whether you are attached to it or not".



That can depend on the person. When I have one glass of wine I get a taste for it and end up getting drunk, so I can't just have one and have to not drink at all if I want to practice.
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby Sati1 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:32 pm

Ten arguments for not drinking alcohol:

1. Extremely subtle perception is necessary for attaining the Truth of the Dhamma. Alcohol perturbs it.
2. The Stream-Enterer was said by Buddha to practice all 5 Precepts (SN 12.41).
3. Anyone who wishes to cut through the defilements and release all cravings must learn to practice mindfulness at all times. Even when one is only slightly tipsy, the mind can no longer be trusted.
4. Heedfulness must be high always if one wants to perfect one's morality.
5. In my experience, alcohol inhibits deep Meditation for days after it has been consumed.
6. A commitment to not drink alcohol is also an exercise in overcoming peer pressure.
7. A commitment to not drink alcohol is also a vehicle towards associating with people of integrity (sappurisamseva), since those people who pressure you into drinking are probably unwholesome influences anyways. Valuable friends will be ok with this commitment.
8. Appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) is inhibited with alcohol. Both 7. and 8. are essential factors for Stream Entry.
9. A person that openly does not drink serves as a role model to others who would prefer not to drink but haven't yet mustered the courage to make the commitment.
10. When one sacrifices a "rule of society" (eg "one ought to have a pint or a glass of wine when going out socially") with a Precept, one further strengthens one's commitment in the Triple Gem.

I share these arguments, since they are the ones that finally drove me to undertake the Fifth Precept last weekend.
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"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.10, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:46 am

Well said Sati1.
We can safely say taking intoxicant is covered in Noble Eight Fold path.
It is covered under the heading mindfulness.

==========
But turning to the five precepts themselves, some words have to be said in defense of their negative formulation. Each moral principle included in the precepts contains two aspects — a negative aspect, which is a rule of abstinence, and a positive aspect, which is a virtue to be cultivated. These aspects are called, respectively, varitta (avoidance) and caritta (positive performance). Thus the first precept is formulated as abstaining from the destruction of life, which in itself is a varitta, a principle of abstinence. But corresponding to this, we also find in the descriptions of the practice of this precept a caritta, a positive quality to be developed, namely compassion. Thus in the suttas we read: "The disciple, abstaining from the taking of life, dwells without stick or sword, conscientious, full of sympathy, desirous of the welfare of all living beings." So corresponding to the negative side of abstaining from the destruction of life, there is the positive side of developing compassion and sympathy for all beings. Similarly, abstinence from stealing is paired with honesty and contentment, abstinence from sexual misconduct is paired with marital fidelity in the case of lay people and celibacy in the case of monks, abstinence from falsehood is paired with speaking the truth, and abstinence from intoxicants is paired with heedfulness.
==========
This fifth precept differs from the preceding four in that the others directly involve a man's relation to his fellow beings while this precept ostensibly deals solely with a person's relation to himself — to his own body and mind. Thus whereas the first four precepts clearly belong to the moral sphere, a question may arise whether this precept is really ethical in character or merely hygienic. The answer is that it is ethical, for the reason that what a person does to his own body and mind can have a decisive effect on his relations to his fellow men. Taking intoxicants can influence the ways in which a man interacts with others, leading to the violation of all five precepts. Under the influence of intoxicants a man who might otherwise be restrained can lose self-control, become heedless, and engage in killing, stealing, adultery, and lying. Abstinence from intoxicants is prescribed on the grounds that it is essential to the self-protection of the individual and for establishing the well-being of family and society. The precept thus prevents the misfortunes that result from the use of intoxicants: loss of wealth, quarrels and crimes, bodily disease, loss of reputation, shameless conduct, negligence, and madness.
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby Ananda26 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:37 pm

SarathW wrote:I just listened to a Dhamma talk by Sri Lankan Buddhist monk (in Sinhalese Language). He said drinking alcohol and eating meat is not an unwholesome activity. He said that he does not say drinking alcohol is good.
Throughout the surmon he never mentioned that alchol lead to headlessnes.

The question I have is.

a) Where does drinking alcohol is fitting in Noble Eightfold Path
b) Did Buddha proclaim the Five Precepts and which Sutta do you find it?

:thinking:


Drinking alcohol is a bad, unwholesome activity.

Here is a link to Numerical Discourse of the Buddha: section 5;discourse #177 which includes intoxicants on the list of 5 wrong types of livelihood for a lay person. Right livelihood is found as item number 5 of the Noble Eightfold Path.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.177.than.html

Here is a link to Long Discourse #32 in which King Vessavana refers to Buddha teaching the 5 precepts. Venerable Sariputta refers to it in Long Discourse #33 which Buddha approved of, and Buddha refers to it in Long Discourse #17 in association with Mahasudasana's Wheel Gem.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.32.0.piya.html
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Re: Did Buddha say drinking Alcohol is bad?

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:03 am

clw_uk wrote:That can depend on the person. When I have one glass of wine I get a taste for it and end up getting drunk, so I can't just have one and have to not drink at all if I want to practice.


I eventually decided that complete abstention was the simplest solution. ;)
Well, oi dunno...
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