The citta as a permanent self?

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Bakmoon
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Re: The citta as a permanent self?

Post by Bakmoon »

now realm wrote:Hi Bakmoon,

I honour your interpretation, but according to my understanding, I don't think it is like that as in Buddha would not be using different terms if they were the same as we normally term all three conventionally as Mind. Buddha is akin to a "surgeon" of reality.

Vinnana consciousness is one of the 5 aggregates khandhas rupa vedana sanna sankhara vinnana of the six senses cakkhu eye sota ear gandha nose jivha tongue kaya body mano intellect or mentality. According to Buddha, citta is mind. It is very clear and specific like this.

On dependent co-arising paticcasamupada, I understand it as a mental phenomena. If you study it carefully, it evolves around all the 5 aggregates of the six senses which if I'm not mistaken, this is moha illusion-delusion which I think the Buddha is pointing at and wanted us to see them as phenomena with the 3 characteristic of anicca dukkha anatta. The phenomena are not what we are as in they co-arise conditionally.

Another term we commonly come across in the pali canon suttas is 'internally and externally'. I think it is talking about the 6 elements dhatu which are found externally and found internally in our six sense body. As what Buddha said, our physical body kaya is in reality the 4 elements heat liquid wind solid or earth. Externally there exist these 4 elements as we know. So now the other 2 elements space and vinnana which exist externally and internally within us as in there is vinnana in dependent co-arising and there is space in our mano as in time and space. With this, it clearly shows citta is not a phenomena which explains I think why citta is not mentioned in dependent co-arising. But, it's my interpretation of my understanding. Not sure if they make any sense. Please do correct me. Much gratitude.
The problem with that is that in many places the Buddha will use all three together in the same context, which would indicate that they mean the same thing. As previously cited by myself and Culavuso:
DN1 wrote:"Herein, bhikkhus, recluse or a certain brahmin is a rationalist, an investigator. He declares his view — hammered out by reason, deduced from his investigations, following his own flight of thought — thus: 'That which is called "the eye," "the ear," "the nose," "the tongue," and "the body" — that self is impermanent, unstable, non-eternal, subject to change. But that which is called "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) — that self is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and it will remain the same just like eternity itself.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html
Assutava Sutta wrote:"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
These aren't isolated cases, but form part of a stock passage that is used in other places in the Suttas as well. Because the Suttas speak of them as being the same thing and never make a distinction between them or use them in the same context in ways that indicate they have different meanings, I don't really see how it is possible to understand them as referring to different things.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
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now realm
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Re: The citta as a permanent self?

Post by now realm »

Hi again Bakmoon,

I'm not sure. I think it is not inaccurate or incorrect in that sense.

I understand citta as the mind that perceive, know and see, is aware, discern but could also be enveloped by defilement. It is inherently pure when free from the 3 evil roots i.e. greed hatred delusion. Buddha is free from these 3 evil roots so the mind is perfectly pure and 'luminous'. Hence, Buddha is 'lokavidu' i.e. knower of the past and future, knows all things, beings and space per Nava Guna Gatha. I think, citta is 'here and now' (some called 'presence') and it's non-linear (no time and space). This could be how it is possible for Buddha to 'know and see' the past and future, and even telepathy with higher beings like devas and communicate with Mara and know his impending passing away in 3 months etc etc. in this non-linear dimension. Today, scientists have discovered that our universe is multi-dimensional. I understand mano as the mind that think, project to past memory and future planning (time and space) etc. Vinnana is the mind as per in paticcasamuppada.

I think it's true that all are elements (dhatu) per the 6 external dhatus i.e. fire water wind earth space consciousness elements. I think the reality is the elements internally in us are the same as the elements externally (i.e. oneness), I think. Logically, if the external elements becomes imbalance so too it will cause imbalance in our internal elements. With this logic, we have to care for our external environment i.e. all the external elements as it would affect us internally i.e. mentally and physically e.g diseases, illness, mental problems when external elements are not in balance since we are made up of the same elements. Not sure if this is logical and true.

I think, we need all 3 i.e. citta mano vinnana to transcend the 3 evil roots i.e lobha dosa moha. Buddha uses the simile 'O housebuilder, you are seen, all your rafters are broken... (refer sutta for exact words). Another simile of the raft to cross over to the 'other shore' (supramundane i.e. lokuttara) as the 3 roots are believed to be the main cause for rebirth. I think, true happiness comes naturally when there's no lobha dosa moha and when we truly see the truth i.e. dhamma as in "when we see the buddha we see the dhamma and vice versa."

Anyway, take what resonates and makes sense to you. *metta*
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now realm
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Re: The citta as a permanent self?

Post by now realm »

Hi again,

Would like to correct my above English terms.

1. The above-mentioned "know and see" - should be "knowing and seeing" as former gives a sense of as if there is a self or someone observing or an "observer" observing a "separate self". I think, "knowing and seeing" is just the function of citta. Citta is expansive i.e. infinite e.g whenever citta is "knowing and seeing" the mental activites of mano e.g memory, planning, scheming, plotting, mental chattering or the inner voice etc etc. Citta is "here and now" "knowing and seeing" these mental activities and it is infinte as citta looks to me like it has the ability to "know and see" this "knowing and seeing" infinitely so citta is infinite, similarly with vinnana (consciousness) and sanna (perception), I think. Most of the time, we are dwelling in mano, therefore we are usually not aware of the present moment whenever we are abosrbed in our mental (mano) activities and the citta is obscured by mano activities so to speak.

Therefore, in meditation we are often asked to come back to the present moment i.e. here and now (ditthadhamma) and dwelling in citta. In this sense Citta is the conscious mind whereas Mano is the unconscious mind. Therefore, Buddha introduced Right Mindfulness (sammasati) per Satipatthana sutta so citta is able to be free and liberated from mano activites. Sounds like teaching here so please don't mistaken it for teaching but with the intention to clarify my understanding of citta against mano as I understand it there is an immaterial "separation" or rather immaterial "detachment" between citta and mano.

I think but not too sure, the Buddha was talking of citta when he says " if there is no unborn uncreated.... there would be no escape from the born, created..." (refer sutta for exact words). Or is this referring to Nibbana? I understand nibbana as unconditioned, deathless, supramundane i.e. not bound, not conditioned by mundane craving of the 6 senses whenever there is "birth is ended, the holy life has been fulfilled there is nothing further to be done" (refer sutta for exact words) i.e. no jati (birth) in craving i.e. enlightened so to speak as citta is not bound by craving. But, it's my understanding, so please do correct me.

2. The above-mentioned "true happiness comes naturally WHEN there is no greed hatred delusion" should be - "..... WHENEVER there is...."

Hope it is clearer now in its meaning. Cheers.
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