Do people who get murdered deserve it?

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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby santa100 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:49 pm

tiltbilling wrote: And the suttas support this? All happiness and suffering arise from previous kamma? Since there are always other conditions at play, it is kamma that is the deciding factor that someone is happy or suffering? A man must reap according to his deeds?


Have you read AN 3.33 I provided above? Please tell exactly where in AN 3.33 that says "A man must reap according to his deeds"?
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:55 pm

santa100 wrote:
tiltbilling wrote: And the suttas support this? All happiness and suffering arise from previous kamma? Since there are always other conditions at play, it is kamma that is the deciding factor that someone is happy or suffering? A man must reap according to his deeds?


Have you read AN 3.33 I provided above? Please tell exactly where in AN 3.33 that says "A man must reap according to his deeds"?
I am not saying that it does. I am simply trying to get at what your point is.


All happiness and suffering arise from previous kamma? Since there are always other conditions at play, it is kamma that is the deciding factor that someone is happy or suffering?So, you agree with this?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby santa100 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:00 pm

How do you define "deciding factor"? If you sow a lemon seed but you don't provide water, sunlight, labor, etc...and you don't get the lemon fruit, is that lemon seed still a deciding factor for you?
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:04 pm

santa100 wrote:How do you define "deciding factor"? If you sow a lemon seed but you don't provide water, sunlight, labor, etc...and you don't get the lemon fruit, is that lemon seed still a deciding factor for you?
I have already acknowledged the other factors at play: "Since there are always other conditions at play, it is kamma that is the deciding factor that someone is happy or suffering?" Can one experience sensations, feelings, have experiences that do not have kamma as a factor?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby santa100 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:05 pm

I will repeat my question: "How do you define "deciding factor"? If you sow a lemon seed but you don't provide water, sunlight, labor, etc...and you don't get the lemon fruit, is that lemon seed still a deciding factor for you?"
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:09 pm

santa100 wrote:I will repeat my question: "How do you define "deciding factor"? If you sow a lemon seed but you don't provide water, sunlight, labor, etc...and you don't get the lemon fruit, is that lemon seed still a deciding factor for you?"
So, to get being murdered fruit there has to be a being murdered seed as well as other factors. If there were no being murdered seed, no murder.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby santa100 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:12 pm

Seems like you finally read AN 3.33. I'd also add that if there's lemon seed but no water and other factors, then there's also no lemon fruit..
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby reflection » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:20 pm

robertk wrote:why does the idea of randomness appeal to so many people?

this is an old post from the thread I referenced.
Mikenz66 wrote:
Dear Ven Dhammanando,

But what about the statement in the Angulimala Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"

Why is this interpreted in terms of the kamma? If the kamma ripens only in his mindstream then how does it condition the throwing of clods, stones, etc, by the bodies of other mindsteams?

Mike

robert:.Where does the sutta say that kamma conditioned the people to throw clods stones etc? They were doing daily chores like throwing out things and these hit the venerable 'accidently'. It is like now when one sees a beautiful girl or an ugly beggar, one seeing vipaka is the result of kusala kamma done in the past, another of an akusala kamma. But the reasons are complex as to why , at any instant, kusala or akusala vipaka should arise, who could know that except a buddha

The fruit of kamma could as well be that he feels pain, is bleeding. That fits better in DO also. Because of birth, a body, because of a body, feelings, because of feelings, pain. The specific throwing of stones doesn't have to be caused by his kamma.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:22 pm

there is no where , anywhere where it is said that someones past kamma caused the throwing of stones by someone else.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:24 pm

santa100 wrote:Seems like you finally read AN 3.33. I'd also add that if there's lemon seed but no water and other factors, then there's also no lemon fruit..
I have read AN 3.33 years ago, and just recently.

But I wonder if you have read:
    Samyutta Nikaya, IV 230. vedanasamyutta, sutta 21. page 1279 (Wisdom Publ.):

    "some feelings arise here originating from bile disorders... originating from phlegm disorders,.... originating from wind disorders....originating from an imbalance <of the three>.... produced by change of climate... produced by careless behavior... caused by assault... produced as the result of kamma: how some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world." Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, 'Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-pleasant-nor-painful, that is caused by what was done in the past,' they over shoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.”
This seems to suggest -- state -- kamma is not always a necessary factor for what we experience.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby reflection » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:26 pm

robertk wrote:there is no where , anywhere where it is said that someones past kamma caused the throwing of stones by someone else.

Sorry, I think I don't understand your point.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:29 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
santa100 wrote:Seems like you finally read AN 3.33. I'd also add that if there's lemon seed but no water and other factors, then there's also no lemon fruit..
I have read AN 3.33 years ago, and just recently.

But I wonder if you have read:
    Samyutta Nikaya, IV 230. vedanasamyutta, sutta 21. page 1279 (Wisdom Publ.):

    "some feelings arise here originating from bile disorders... originating from phlegm disorders,.... originating from wind disorders....originating from an imbalance <of the three>.... produced by change of climate... produced by careless behavior... caused by assault... produced as the result of kamma: how some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world." Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, 'Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-pleasant-nor-painful, that is caused by what was done in the past,' they over shoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.”
This seems to suggest -- state -- kamma is not always a necessary factor for what we experience.

actually for the jati of vipaka kamma is always a necessary condition( but never the only one)


The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 , refers to this sutta and notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause:
"for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm'(in the sutta above) because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on."
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby santa100 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:31 pm

tiltbillings wrote: But I wonder if you have read:..

It's great that you mention SN 36.21 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html ). For this, ven. Bodhi offered his insight:
In the argument, vedana is being used in the narrower sense of painful feeling. Bile (pitta), phlegm (semha), and wind (vta) are the three bodily humours (dosa) of Indian Ayurveda medicine. It should be noted that the Buddha’s appeal to personal experience and common sense as the two criteria for rejecting the view that all feeling is caused by past kamma implies that the view against which he is arguing is the claim that past kamma is the sole and sufficient cause of all present feeling. However, the Buddha’s line of argument also implies that he is not denying kamma may induce the illnesses, etc., that serve as the immediate causes of the painful feelings; for this level of causality is not immediately perceptible to those who lack supernormal cognitive faculties. Thus kamma can still be an indirect cause for the painful feeling directly induced by the first seven causes. It is the sufficient cause only in the eighth case, though even then it must operate in conjunction with various other conditions
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:38 pm

santa100 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: But I wonder if you have read:..

It's great that you mention SN 36.21 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html ). For this, ven. Bodhi offered his insight:
In the argument, vedana is being used in the narrower sense of painful feeling. Bile (pitta), phlegm (semha), and wind (vta) are the three bodily humours (dosa) of Indian Ayurveda medicine. It should be noted that the Buddha’s appeal to personal experience and common sense as the two criteria for rejecting the view that all feeling is caused by past kamma implies that the view against which he is arguing is the claim that past kamma is the sole and sufficient cause of all present feeling. However, the Buddha’s line of argument also implies that he is not denying kamma may induce the illnesses, etc., that serve as the immediate causes of the painful feelings; for this level of causality is not immediately perceptible to those who lack supernormal cognitive faculties. Thus kamma can still be an indirect cause for the painful feeling directly induced by the first seven causes. It is the sufficient cause only in the eighth case, though even then it must operate in conjunction with various other conditions
The point of the text, however, is that kamma may not be a factor is one's untimely death.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:42 pm

robertk wrote:yes here is the link again

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... hilit=hell


But how does this relate to the idea that "randomness appeals"?
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:43 pm

robertk wrote:

The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 , refers to this sutta and notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause:
"for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm'(in the sutta above) because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on."
Interesting, but it does not suggest, or state, (in line with the sutta) that kamma is always a factor in what we experience.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:49 pm

Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:yes here is the link again

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=336&hilit=hell


But how does this relate to the idea that "randomness appeals"?

what I said was that i dont know why randomness appeals to people.
in case there is confusion i am saying that i dont believe in randomness. that article explains how kamma and the other condtions lead to results..
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:51 pm

Hi Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:But how does this relate to the idea that "randomness appeals"?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18948&start=40#p265757
reflection wrote:... Aside from being born leading to death I don't think there always has to be any further reason for a particular death. The "universe" doesn't arrange things that way. Just bad luck is all....

robertk wrote:why does the idea of randomness appeal to so many people?


As Robert observes, it's interesting that often in discussions that relate to the difficult questions around determinism, free will, etc, the idea of randomness ("luck") often arises. Randomness would certainly be an antidote to determinism (assuming one requires an antidote), but randomness is hardly free will either...

:anjali:
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby reflection » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:55 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:

The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 , refers to this sutta and notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause:
"for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm'(in the sutta above) because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on."
Interesting, but it does not suggest, or state, (in line with the sutta) that kamma is always a factor in what we experience.

or that it is the only factor. Kamma is always an indirect factor in our experience, because without kamma no birth, but the thing is people implying everything is kamma. A stone falling down a hill is supposedly due to kamma. But stones also fall when there is no head to hit, so it'd be rather silly for the stones to fall due to kamma alone.

Btw I never said randomness or undetermined. Just not that all has to be due to kamma. I think it is quite obvious certain things will happen also if there is no being involved, if there is no kamma involved. It is just a small step to see that those things can also happen to beings as well. Like the stone falling on your head.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:59 pm

reflection wrote: but the thing is people implying everything is kamma. A stone falling down a hill is supposedly due to kamma. But stones also fall when there is no head to hit, so it'd be rather silly for the stones to fall due to kamma alone.
A rock falls, hits a person

Btw I never said randomness or undetermined. Just not that all has to be due to kamma. I think it is quite obvious certain things will happen also if there is no being involved, if there is no kamma involved. It is just a small step to see that those things can also happen to beings as well. Like the stone falling on your head.[/quote]I agree.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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