Do people who get murdered deserve it?

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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby hermitwin » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:39 pm

The good and bad results that arise from kamma are not rewards or punishments. They are not imposed by any outside power. Actions produce their results naturally through the law of cause and effect working in the moral realm. This natural law is called "kamma niyama", the order of kamma, which functions autonomously. The Buddha explains how kamma is the cause of differences in the fortunes of people.

(a) Some people die prematurely because in the past they have destoyed life. The karmic result of killing is to be shortlived. Others live long because they were kind and compassionate, they had respect and reverence for life.
(b) Some are sickly because they have injured and hurt other beings.
(c) Those who were often angry and harsh become ugly, those who were patient and cheerful become beautiful.
(d) Some are rich because they have been generous in the past, some are poor because they have been selfish.
(e) Some are influential because they have rejoiced in the good fortunes of others.
(f) Some are weak and powerless because they have been envious of the good fortunes of others.
(g) Some are intelligent because they have been reflective and studious in the past, because they always enquired and investigated matters. Some are dull and stupid because they have been lazy and negligent, because they never studied and did not think.

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha057.htm#k6
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:44 pm

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:No. It would be a sign of the right view: “All beings are heirs to their kamma, and they inherit its results.”


That a specific thing happened in this life because of a specific thing in a past life?

:anjali:

like moggalana been beaten to death?


Yes like Moggalana being beaten to death. Accept I imagine in the Moggalana story, whoever related the story was someone who was credited with having genuine knowledge rather than someone who was holding a view.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:19 pm

hermitwin wrote:It really depends on what you mean by deserve.


The Oxford Dictionary's: "To have or show qualities worthy of a reaction which rewards or punishes as appropriate," may serve as a starting point.

hermitwin wrote:If I am born fat and short, do I deserve it?
If not why is my brother tall and thin?
Why was I born ugly but intelligent?
While my brother was born handsome but with the IQ of 50?
Do we deserve these things or not?
Yes, because of our past karma has led to this.


Thank you for clarifying your position. I suspected that this was what you meant, but wanted to know for sure before replying. I'm busy right now, but will post later on why I think this use of 'deserve' is out of place ('undeserved', if you will) in this connection.
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby reflection » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:42 pm

I think it's thinking too mechanical that all things that happen are kamma related; that being murdered must be due to your kamma. It has to do with the kamma of the murderer, not always your own - not in these random shootout things anyway. That's more like sitting in the wrong plane that happens to crash. Did all people on that plane do some past kamma that they should now crash? Aside from being born leading to death I don't think there always has to be any further reason for a particular death. The "universe" doesn't arrange things that way. Just bad luck is all. Now how those beings may be reborn in the next life - that'd be the kind of thing that is kamma related.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:25 pm

why does the idea of randomness appeal to so many people?

this is an old post from the thread I referenced.
Mikenz66 wrote:
Dear Ven Dhammanando,

But what about the statement in the Angulimala Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"

Why is this interpreted in terms of the kamma? If the kamma ripens only in his mindstream then how does it condition the throwing of clods, stones, etc, by the bodies of other mindsteams?

Mike

robert:.Where does the sutta say that kamma conditioned the people to throw clods stones etc? They were doing daily chores like throwing out things and these hit the venerable 'accidently'. It is like now when one sees a beautiful girl or an ugly beggar, one seeing vipaka is the result of kusala kamma done in the past, another of an akusala kamma. But the reasons are complex as to why , at any instant, kusala or akusala vipaka should arise, who could know that except a buddha
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby santa100 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:32 pm

AN 3.33 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ) compares one's kamma to seeds that depend on favorable conditions to germinate. So, there's no doubt that if a person is murdered, there must be some underlying negative kamma that had been done in the past. But just like a seed wouldn't be able to bear fruit unless all the necessary conditions like water, sunlight, labor, etc. are present, a negative kamma alone by itself will not make that person die. And because of the interdependence of factors, cultivation of wholesome virtues can prevent or limit the effects of unwholesome kamma just like depriving the seed of the needed water or sunlight..
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:34 pm

santa100 wrote:AN 3.33 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ) compares one's kamma to seeds that depend on favorable conditions to germinate. So, there's no doubt that if a person is murdered, there must be some underlying negative kamma that had been done in the past. But just like a seed wouldn't be able to bear fruit unless all the necessary conditions like water, sunlight, labor, etc. are present, a negative kamma alone by itself will not make that person die. And because of the interdependence of factors, cultivation of wholesome virtues can prevent or limit the effects of unwholesome kamma just like depriving the seed of the needed water or sunlight..
So, everything that happens to us is the result of kamma: as you sow, so shall you reap?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby santa100 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:42 pm

Provided that the water, sunlight, are there...
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:45 pm

tiltbillings wrote:So, everything that happens to us is the result of kamma: as you sow, so shall you reap?

there is no self at all . so any "us "is simply a designation to represent selfless elements. and among those elements the jati of vipaka is always primarily conditioned by past kamma. however as santa said there have to be supporting conditions for the kamma to bear fruit.


the other jatis are conditioned by other paccaya.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:49 pm

santa100 wrote:Provided that the water, sunlight, are there...
That does not really answer the question. So, you would say yes to: " Do people who get murdered deserve it?" And yes to: everything we experience is the result of kamma?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby santa100 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:50 pm

No, I don't think "deserve" is the proper word to use since it implies a "self" to the sufferer. As robertk pointed, it's just the elements and processes..
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:55 pm

robertk wrote:why does the idea of randomness appeal to so many people?

I'm not sure if randomness really appeals to people (unless it is made into a theory). In my opinion what people find difficult is a lack of explanation, a not knowing or understanding.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:58 pm

santa100 wrote:No, I don't think "deserve" is the proper word to use since it implies a "self" to the sufferer. As robertk pointed, it's just the elements and processes..
You still have not answered the question: Does everything that happens to a person happen as a result of kamma?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby santa100 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:00 pm

I actually did. Read again..
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:04 pm

santa100 wrote:I actually did. Read again..
Well, I am rather thick, and would like a simple yes or no.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby santa100 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:08 pm

Your question lacks information and so can lead to misunderstanding. If you ask: "Does everything that happens to a person happen as a result of kamma ALONE?" then No is the answer. If you ask "Does everything that happens to a person happen as a result of kamma AND the necessary supporting conditions?" then Yes is the answer..
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:20 pm

Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:why does the idea of randomness appeal to so many people?

I'm not sure if randomness really appeals to people (unless it is made into a theory). In my opinion what people find difficult is a lack of explanation, a not knowing or understanding.

in the link i gave earlier there was a good short article by Nina van gorkom that has clear explanations of this.
When there is some understanding of kamma, vipaka and jatis then it is almost difficult to ever feel depressed by anything untoward that occurs in life, imho.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:23 pm

santa100 wrote:If you ask "Does everything that happens to a person happen as a result of kamma AND the necessary supporting conditions?" then Yes is the answer..
And the suttas support this? All happiness and suffering arise from previous kamma? Since there are always other conditions at play, it is kamma that is the deciding factor that someone is happy or suffering? A man must reap according to his deeds?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:44 pm

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:why does the idea of randomness appeal to so many people?

I'm not sure if randomness really appeals to people (unless it is made into a theory). In my opinion what people find difficult is a lack of explanation, a not knowing or understanding.

in the link i gave earlier there was a good short article by Nina van gorkom that has clear explanations of this.
When there is some understanding of kamma, vipaka and jatis then it is almost difficult to ever feel depressed by anything untoward that occurs in life, imho.


robertk do you mean the Q&A's
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:47 pm

yes here is the link again

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=336&hilit=hell
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