Do people who get murdered deserve it?

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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby hermitwin » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:59 am

Yes.
Otherwise, they wont get murdered.


Dr. Dukkha wrote:I've begun to build my own understanding of kamma. When someone does a good or bad deed, that deed is given a number of intensity or severity to the decimal which makes a specific shape and that shape is made of the trail that the road to enlightenment is made of. That deed slides across the road and passes opportunities on the road that it can fill up a spot that a reward or punishment can be acquired. But when the shape reaches the exact slot where it fits, the kamma slides in and takes action. So I came up with the idea that kamma doesn't hit us at random times, it has it's place to fit in; a specific time for everything.

So now I have a seperate question. And by asking this, I'm not trying to offend anyone. If someone went to a mall, for instance (completely hypothetical), and shot up a bunch of people, since kamma is supposed to cause consequences for people's actions, would those people he shot deserve it?
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby hermitwin » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:05 am

The murder rate in US is 5 for 100,000 population.
That is 0.005% of the population.
99.995% of people are not murdered.
So, only a very small percentage of people are murdered.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:14 am

hermitwin wrote:Yes.
Otherwise, they wont get murdered.


And are US citizens more deserving of being Murdered?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/16/u-s-murder-rate-higher-than-nearly-all-other-developed-countries-fbi-data/

Are UK residents more meritorious?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/murder-rate-hits-42yearlow-in-london-8462974.html

:)
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:16 am

hermitwin wrote:Yes.
Otherwise, they wont get murdered.


Oh? Do you mean that the statements “Jones’ death by murder was the ripening of a past unwholesome kamma” and “Jones deserved to be murdered” would differ only in their wording, not in their meaning?

Editorial addition:

Consider the following statements, spoken in the aftermath of Mrs. Jones, an old lady, getting beaten to death by muggers:

1. Mrs. Jones’ death by murder was the vipāka of a weighty unwholesome kamma performed in a former life.

2. Were it not for that past unwholesome kamma her murder would not have happened, therefore Mrs. Jones only got what she deserved. Her fate was well-merited. She got a taste of her own medicine. It serves the old woman right.

3. Since Mrs. Jones deserved her fate, her muggers were only doing what was right and just and should be commended for it.

If we grant that #1 is true (which we ought), then it seems to me that the only way to avoid the reductio ad absurdum that culminates in #3 is by rejecting #2.

How then do we go about rejecting #2?
Last edited by Dhammanando on Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:50 am

No one “deserves” to get murdered — not even military combatants in warfare.

However, in a society that glorifies warfare and guns, even the innocent are more likely to get killed, so it stands to reason that more people will be murdered in the US than in the UK, where the death penalty is abolished, and gun ownership is more strictly regulated.

Boy with fake gun killed by police in US

US police have good reason to be wary if they see a kid carrying a firearm.

A 14-year-old boy charged in the death of a teacher
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:05 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:No one “deserves” to get murdered — not even military combatants in warfare.

However, in a society that glorifies warfare and guns, even the innocent are more likely to get killed, so it stands to reason that more people will be murdered in the US than in the UK, where the death penalty is abolished, and gun ownership is more strictly regulated.

Boy with fake gun killed by police in US

US police have good reason to be wary if they see a kid carrying a firearm.

A 14-year-old boy charged in the death of a teacher


Thank you Bhante.
:anjali:
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby cooran » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:09 am

Hello all,

Why would there be a Precept against killing living beings if they are only getting their "just desserts"?

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby dagon » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:16 am

The Buddha taught us not to speculate on karma – but to understand that the outcomes of our intentions are our only property that we will take into out next lives.

Saying that someone deserves to be murdered only serves to block out ability/willingness to have compassion for all those affected by the murder

Violence leads to more violence

Kindness and compassion leads to more kindness and compassion

Kindness and compassion helps to prepare our minds to be able to develop insight

Metta
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Aloka » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:44 am

.


When I read this thread, I can't help thinking about what is said in connection with kamma in sutta AN 4.77 "Unconjecturable"


"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html


With kind regards,

Aloka
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:07 am

Would to hold a view that such and such a thing has happened in this life as the result of an action in a past life be a sign of madness?
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:13 am

It is like Mahamoggalana who was beaten to death by hired killers. And this was result of killing/trying to kill his parents in a distant past life.
Did HE deserve it?

Actually in truth there are only elements, only dukkha arising and passing away.

No Moggalana in ultimate terms, but there is kamma and there is vipaka, cause and result, the three rounds of kilesa, kamma, and vipaka circling round and round, unceasing..until khandha parinibbana.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:40 am

cooran wrote:Why would there be a Precept against killing living beings if they are only getting their "just desserts"?


For those who insist that “Jones' past kamma generated its vipāka” can be equated with “Jones got what she deserved” (a view that's ubiquitous among theosophically-influenced Buddhists and not uncommon among Vajrayanists), the consideration you bring up would no doubt result in a bit of a quandary. They might find themselves at a loss as to whether they should praise the muggers for giving Jones what she deserves or condemn them for breaking the first precept. But though this makes the equating of the two statements problematic, I don’t think that in itself it will suffice to show the equation to be just plain wrong.
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:13 am

This is a topic with some relevant posts by Ven. Dhammanando (and me)
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... hilit=hell
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:27 am

Aloka wrote:.
When I read this thread, I can't help thinking about what is said in connection with kamma in sutta AN 4.77 "Unconjecturable"


How remarkable. Why do suppose it is that you can't help thinking about what is said in connection with kamma in sutta AN 4.77?

This thread, after all, is not concerned with conjecturing about the detailed working out of kamma-vipāka. It deals with altogether different questions: is it proper that what is called 'vipāka' should be equated with what are called 'just deserts', and if not, why not? Now why would discussion of this lead you to think of the Acinteyya Sutta? Have you perhaps detected some sign of the thread's contributors being led into vexation and madness?
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:58 pm

Mr Man wrote:Would to hold a view that such and such a thing has happened in this life as the result of an action in a past life be a sign of madness?

No. It would be a sign of the right view: “All beings are heirs to their kamma, and they inherit its results.”
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:03 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Would to hold a view that such and such a thing has happened in this life as the result of an action in a past life be a sign of madness?

No. It would be a sign of the right view: “All beings are heirs to their kamma, and they inherit its results.”


That a specific thing happened in this life because of a specific thing in a past life?

:anjali:
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:19 pm

That a specific thing happened in this life because of a specific thing in a past life?


    Now at that time a certain monk was a ruminator; he ate ruminating continually. Monks . . . spread it about, saying: “This monk is partaking of a meal at the wrong time.”

    Then these monks told this matter to the Lord. He said: “Monks, this monk has recently passed on from the womb of a cow. I allow, monks, rumination for a ruminator. But, monks, one should not eat (anything), having brought it back from the mouth to outside of it. Whoever should (so) eat should be dealt with according to the rule. (Vinaya, Cūḷavagga. I.B. Horner trans.)
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:21 pm

Mr Man wrote:That a specific thing happened in this life because of a specific thing in a past life?

Read "Relationship of Cause to Effect" under "Four Points to Bear in Mind" in the chapter On Other Aspects of the Law of Dependent Origination."
The fourth aspect of Dependent Origination is the one- to-one correspondence between cause and effect (evaṃ dhammatā). Every cause leads only to the relevant effect; it has nothing to do with any irrelevant effects.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:22 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Would to hold a view that such and such a thing has happened in this life as the result of an action in a past life be a sign of madness?

No. It would be a sign of the right view: “All beings are heirs to their kamma, and they inherit its results.”


That a specific thing happened in this life because of a specific thing in a past life?

:anjali:

like moggalana been beaten to death?
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby hermitwin » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:32 pm

It really depends on what you mean by deserve.
If I am born fat and short, do I deserve it?
If not why is my brother tall and thin?
Why was I born ugly but intelligent?
While my brother was born handsome but with the IQ of 50?
Do we deserve these things or not?
Yes, because of our past karma has led to this.
I am not saying karma is the only reason that we find the predicament we are in.

If Jack gets murdered, why?
Why didnt John get murdered?
Why did John join the army and lost both his legs?
Do they deserve what they got?

If they dont deserve it, then what?
The explanation by Buddha is things dont happen randomly to you.
There is a cause.
The cause that we can do something about is our kamma, action or
more accurately our intention.
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