Do people who get murdered deserve it?

[Dr. Dukkha]

I've begun to build my own understanding of kamma. When someone does a good or bad deed, that deed is given a number of intensity or severity to the decimal which makes a specific shape and that shape is made of the trail that the road to enlightenment is made of. That deed slides across the road and passes opportunities on the road that it can fill up a spot that a reward or punishment can be acquired. But when the shape reaches the exact slot where it fits, the kamma slides in and takes action. So I came up with the idea that kamma doesn't hit us at random times, it has it's place to fit in; a specific time for everything.

So now I have a seperate question. And by asking this, I'm not trying to offend anyone. If someone went to a mall, for instance (completely hypothetical), and shot up a bunch of people, since kamma is supposed to cause consequences for people's actions, would those people he shot deserve it?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Dr. Dukkha,

No offense intended, but I would pull down what you've learned and start again.

Kamma: A Study Guide
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html

In short, the qualitative nature of our conditioned-mindstates flavours the quality of present and future experience.

Metta,
Retro.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

This topic has been discussed to death in other threads.

Would those who post speculative views about kamma on Buddhist forums without having done their research deserve it if others shoot them down in flames?

[reflection]

Everybody who is born will die. That's the important kamma. That's the consequences that we should look at. Specific ways of dying really are not all that important kamma-wise.

[DrRPDB]

Wow! I myself find the question a bit under developed but it seems to me, given his other posts, that Dr. D is genuine in his efforts. I find these replies not very inviting to those new to either the forum or Buddhism.... But I'm sure I'm missing something....

With respect and metta

[Aloka]

To help clear up any misunderstandings about kamma, I highly recommend listening to this talk given by Ajahn Amaro at Amaravati monastery :

"Who is pulling the Strings?"

http://www.amaravati.org/teachings/audi ... ation/2083

- the link to the talk is under a question and answer session with the same title.

[Sanjay PS]

Everybody who is born will die. That's the important kamma. That's the consequences that we should look at. Specific ways of dying really are not all that important kamma-wise.

True.

However exalted the birth be , and however blissful and long the period be , the kamma of death catches up .

It is nice to understand that we are makings of our own doings , and this gets nicely reflected when we feel the sensations with in us, and remain equanimous .

sanjay

[Doshin]

This topic has been discussed to death in other threads.

Would those who post speculative views about kamma on Buddhist forums without having done their research deserve it if others shoot them down in flames? :stirthepot:

If everyone did their research, would there be any need for forum(s) ?

_/\_

[seeker242]

Everybody who is born will die. That's the important kamma. That's the consequences that we should look at. Specific ways of dying really are not all that important kamma-wise.

Yes! And to try to nail down specifics is something the Buddha advised against.

"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

If everyone did their research, would there be any need for forum(s) ?

Yes, there would, because the Dhamma is profound. However, if members do a bit of searching and reading before posting, the question is more likely to lead to a meaningful discussion, and less likely to get dragged off-topic.

If one uses a word like “deserve,” then some may think of cases of taking vengeance like this sad case.

If we do not know the previous kamma of the victim, which bore fruit in this life as the result of getting murdered, then people may misunderstand if we say that they inherited the result of their kamma, especially if we use such terms as "deserve."

An Ill-directed Mind Can Do Great Harm
In this case, the monks who accompanied the Buddha, attributed the wrong cause to the result.

Nobody Can Escape the Effects of Kamma

Then again, if someone engages in drug-dealing, or other risky activity, they are more likely to get murdered. Prostitutes are also twelve times more likely to get murdered than average women, and one presumes that nuns are even less likely to get murdered.

[DrRPDB]

Then again, if someone engages in drug-dealing, or other risky activity, they are more likely to get murdered. Prostitutes are also much more likely to get murdered than average women, and one presumes that nuns are even less likely to get murdered.

Given the complexities and indeterminate nature of kamma - the lifetimes and avalable situations which my need to be present from which fruits to ripen and so forth, I find the above quote a bit bothering... I would think that a society in which neither of the above were true would not only be possible in a Buddhist world but desirable. For we really do not know why each has taken the path they have taken - even mass murderers may become an adherent... But hey, I haven't done all my research in the area, so...well, I guess I'll duck and cover.

[manas]

Just an observation: maybe 'deserve' isn't really the right word. If everything that happens in Samsara, murders or otherwise, is due to cause and effect, then it's not a matter of 'deserve', it's just action and reaction unfolding, and in a way that's beyond our current scope to fully comprehend. The term 'deserve' is a value judgement imposed by human beings, whereas kammic law is rather impersonal, is it not?

Noun 1. value judgement - an assessment that reveals more about the values of the person making the assessment than about the reality of what is assessed
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/value+judgement

kind regards

[DNS]

As has been probably mentioned in the many other threads on this topic; even Moggallana one of the chief monks of the Buddha, was murdered and he was an arahant. Thus, obviously it is futile, useless, unwholesome and unnecessary to speculate on someone's kamma.

[rohana]

I'd say 'deserved' is a meaningless term from a Buddhist POV on karma. It puts a kind of theistic spin on it. We've all done unskillful actions in the past. It's meaningless to say one person is more deserving than the other for their vipāka.

[chownah]

Dr. Dukkha,
Can you tell us what you mean by deserve?
chownah