Do people who get murdered deserve it?

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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:03 pm

hmm maybe i was obtuse earlier

reflectin: A stone falling down a hill is supposedly due to kamma


The texts never suggest that a stone falling down a hill is due to kamma.
maybe you could quote something so we have an idea of where you get that idea from..
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby reflection » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:08 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:But how does this relate to the idea that "randomness appeals"?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18948&start=40#p265757
reflection wrote:... Aside from being born leading to death I don't think there always has to be any further reason for a particular death. The "universe" doesn't arrange things that way. Just bad luck is all....

robertk wrote:why does the idea of randomness appeal to so many people?


As Robert observes, it's interesting that often in discussions that relate to the difficult questions around determinism, free will, etc, the idea of randomness ("luck") often arises. Randomness would certainly be an antidote to determinism (assuming one requires an antidote), but randomness is hardly free will either...

:anjali:
Mike

I do belief in randomness by the way, but that doesn't really matter for this discussion. When I mentioned bad luck, I was just talking about being on the wrong place at the wrong time. That could as well be determined. The point is it doesn't all have to be due to kamma (intentional action).
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:15 pm

Thanks robertk and mikenz66
But don't all these discussions come about because we want to get away from a world that feels random and create some order (through ideas). So I'm not sure if accepting randomness is really appealing to many (although yes it does get offered as an option).
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby reflection » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:18 pm

robertk wrote:hmm maybe i was obtuse earlier

reflectin: A stone falling down a hill is supposedly due to kamma


The texts never suggest that a stone falling down a hill is due to kamma.
maybe you could quote something so we have an idea of where you get that idea from..

I'm not saying the texts say that. It's an example extrapolated from the statement that being murdered by someone else is (entirely) due to kamma. If you assume that, than you must in my eyes also assume that rocks falling on your head and stuff like that are kamma. Because logically you must then also belief that, for example, being shot but being hit 1cm away from your vital organs (and so surviving) is due to kamma and not due to something else. That's virtually the same as a rock falling just in front of you or just on your head (or toe :tongue: ) I hope you see the logic.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby reflection » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:23 pm

Mr Man wrote:Thanks robertk and mikenz66
But don't all these discussions come about because we want to get away from a world that feels random and create some order (through ideas). So I'm not sure if accepting randomness is really appealing to many (although yes it does get offered as an option).

I don't think appealing has anything to do with it, indeed. One could just as well ask the question why determinism (or all-is-kamma) is so appealing to people.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:32 pm

reflection wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Thanks robertk and mikenz66
But don't all these discussions come about because we want to get away from a world that feels random and create some order (through ideas). So I'm not sure if accepting randomness is really appealing to many (although yes it does get offered as an option).

I don't think appealing has anything to do with it, indeed. One could just as well ask the question why determinism (or all-is-kamma) is so appealing to people.


Well, I find it easier to understand why determinism or why or a moral order would be appealing. Being in control or being out of control, It's a no-brainer isn't it?
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:59 pm

Mr Man wrote:
reflection wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Thanks robertk and mikenz66
But don't all these discussions come about because we want to get away from a world that feels random and create some order (through ideas). So I'm not sure if accepting randomness is really appealing to many (although yes it does get offered as an option).

I don't think appealing has anything to do with it, indeed. One could just as well ask the question why determinism (or all-is-kamma) is so appealing to people.


Well, I find it easier to understand why determinism or why or a moral order would be appealing. Being in control or being out of control, It's a no-brainer isn't it?
But determinism is no more in control than is randomness.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:11 pm

tiltbillings wrote:But determinism is no more control than is randomness.


Determinism has a sense of order, which I think could be more appealing. Maybe not?
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:12 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But determinism is no more control than is randomness.


Determinism has a sense of order, which I think could be more appealing. Maybe not?
The individual is out of control over his or her life either way.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby chownah » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:11 am

The individual is out of control.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:54 am

chownah wrote:The individual is out of control.
chownah
Fortunately, that is not what the Buddha taught. There are aspects of our lives that we do have enough control of that we can choose to follow his teachings or not
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:49 am

This is the definition of determinism from merriam-webster.com:

a : a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws.

Could this describe abidhamma philosaphy?
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:56 am

Mr Man wrote:This is the definition of determinism from merriam-webster.com:

a : a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws.

Could this describe abidhamma philosaphy?
"Determinism is a philosophical position stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby SDC » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:The individual is out of control.
chownah
Fortunately, that is not what the Buddha taught. There are aspects of our lives that we do have enough control of that we can choose to follow his teachings or not


I think chownah is saying that people have very little or exercise very little control. If that isn't what he meant, that is what I'm saying. The Buddha definitely taught that. He also taught how to gain control of the behavior and thinking. And the first verse of the Dhammapada explains how conditions are a result of how we think. So control is there to be gained.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:48 pm

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:The individual is out of control.
chownah
Fortunately, that is not what the Buddha taught. There are aspects of our lives that we do have enough control of that we can choose to follow his teachings or not


I think chownah is saying that people have very little or exercise very little control. If that isn't what he meant, that is what I'm saying. The Buddha definitely taught that. He also taught how to gain control of the behavior and thinking. And the first verse of the Dhammapada explains how conditions are a result of how we think. So control is there to be gained.
Damdifino what chownah meant, but I try to read msgs as they are written, and I don't see any in his 6 words reference to, or direct statement of, having little control or exercising little control, notions which would be easy enough to express.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby robertk » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:54 am

Mr Man wrote:
reflection wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Thanks robertk and mikenz66
But don't all these discussions come about because we want to get away from a world that feels random and create some order (through ideas). So I'm not sure if accepting randomness is really appealing to many (although yes it does get offered as an option).

I don't think appealing has anything to do with it, indeed. One could just as well ask the question why determinism (or all-is-kamma) is so appealing to people.


Well, I find it easier to understand why determinism or why or a moral order would be appealing. Being in control or being out of control, It's a no-brainer isn't it?

moral order aligns with the Dhamma. does randomness?
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby Mr Man » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:10 pm

robertk wrote:moral order aligns with the Dhamma. does randomness?


Do you mean moral order aligns with the teachings of the Buddha?

If I was driving a car and one of my tyres popped, which caused me to hit a dog. I would say there were a set of events which caused this to happen but there is also a degree of randomness in how the event came together. At what point does something become random? Maybe I was careless because I have a predisposition to carelessness. Maybe the dog was behaving in a certain way due to it's predisposition but in my opinion we have to accept a certain amount of randomness or of not knowing "why" in such situations. Although it seems like the natural tendency of my mind is to try and find or create an explanation.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:31 pm

Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:moral order aligns with the Dhamma. does randomness?


Do you mean moral order aligns with the teachings of the Buddha?

If I was driving a car and one of my tyres popped, which caused me to hit a dog. I would say there were a set of events which caused this to happen but there is also a degree of randomness in how the event came together. At what point does something become random? Maybe I was careless because I have a predisposition to carelessness. Maybe the dog was behaving in a certain way due to it's predisposition but in my opinion we have to accept a certain amount of randomness or of not knowing "why" in such situations. Although it seems like the natural tendency of my mind is to try and find or create an explanation.
Pretty much what the Buddha taught.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby reflection » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:02 pm

I think a difficulty also arises when we think dying is so much more suffering than living, so if we die non-naturally (eg. murder, accident) we must have somehow deserved it by kamma. But the difference ain't that big. One could also easily be reborn without having gone backwards, so kamma vipaka in the end is really small. I can see it would sort of being like going to sleep and waking up. But nobody looks for kamma causes for that.

I hope people understand what I try to say here.
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Postby purple planet » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:37 pm

Great question dr i wondered about it myself - here is a good video on your question - in short it says there is good and bad kamma (vipaka) but its only part of the stuff that happen and that you can experience bad experiences without any connection to kamma

Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance
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