The fool and the wise person

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The fool and the wise person

Postby chownah » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:53 pm

SN 12.19 PTS: S ii 23 CDB i 549
Bala-pandita Sutta: The Fool & the Wise Person
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(It starts with the Buddha describing a fool and a wise person but it seems the descriptions are the same. When asked what is the difference, the Buddha replies:)

The Blessed One said, "The ignorance with which the fool is obstructed, the craving with which he is conjoined, through which this body results: that ignorance has not been abandoned by the fool; that craving has not been destroyed. Why is that? The fool has not practiced the holy life for the right ending of stress. Therefore, at the break-up of the body, he is headed for a [new] body. Headed for a body, he is not entirely freed from birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. I tell you, he is not entirely freed from stress & suffering.

"The ignorance with which the wise person is obstructed, the craving with which he is conjoined, through which this body results: that ignorance has been abandoned by the wise person; that craving has been destroyed. Why is that? The wise person has practiced the holy life for the right ending of stress. Therefore, at the break-up of the body, he is not headed for a [new] body. Not headed for a body, he is entirely freed from birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is, I tell you, entirely freed from stress & suffering."
---------------------------------

Can someone explain this? Seems like the wise person is obstructed by already destroyed ignorance (how can that be?) and conjoined by already destroyed craving(and how can that be?)

Seems like double talk to me.
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Re: The fool and the wise person

Postby equilibrium » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:09 pm

chownah wrote:The Blessed One said, "The ignorance with which the fool is obstructed, the craving with which he is conjoined, through which this body results: that ignorance has not been abandoned by the fool; that craving has not been destroyed. Why is that? The fool has not practiced the holy life for the right ending of stress. Therefore, at the break-up of the body, he is headed for a [new] body. Headed for a body, he is not entirely freed from birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. I tell you, he is not entirely freed from stress & suffering.

"The ignorance with which the wise person is obstructed, the craving with which he is conjoined, through which this body results: that ignorance has been abandoned by the wise person; that craving has been destroyed. Why is that? The wise person has practiced the holy life for the right ending of stress. Therefore, at the break-up of the body, he is not headed for a [new] body. Not headed for a body, he is entirely freed from birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is, I tell you, entirely freed from stress & suffering."

Differences are highlighted.
"right ending" meaning a purpose/end/result/target!
Remember, existence itself, the body, is conditioned.....by cause.
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Re: The fool and the wise person

Postby santa100 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:52 pm

SN 12.19: The ignorance with which the wise person is obstructed, the craving with which he is conjoined, through which this body results: that ignorance has been abandoned by the wise person; that craving has been destroyed


The highlighted part was mentioned for both the fool and the wise because they are the "past causes" (From Ven. Bodhi's "Connected Discourses"): "The "past causes" are the ignorance and craving that brought both the fool and the wise man into the present existence; the "present results"—the conscious body, name-and-form, the six sense bases, contact, and feeling". What separates the wise from the fool was highlighted by Equilibrium as above: "The wise person has practiced the holy life for the right ending of stress"..
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Re: The fool and the wise person

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:31 am

Thanks to both of you. I can see how the ignorance was a past cause in terms of kamma......but to me the craving seems like a present condition.....seems like it says that the wise person is conjoined with craving and yet has abandoned it......maybe it is just poorly stated? Maybe it should say something like "the craving to which the wise person was conjoined"......or something similar.
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Re: The fool and the wise person

Postby santa100 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:33 am

Alternative translation from Ven. Bodhi..
Bhikkhus, for the wise man, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has originated. For the wise man that ignorance has been abandoned and that craving has been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the wise man has lived the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to [another] body. Not faring on to [another] body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say
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Re: The fool and the wise person

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:57 am

Yeah, I can follow this much better, thanks.
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